IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 8:52:23 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-term |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2021 9:16:32 GMT
Just don't mention Italy or Belgium.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 10:00:02 GMT
Just don't mention Italy or Belgium. I think you'll find those two countries struggle whatever their electoral system. Indeed, Italy changed to First Past the Post and it was just as bad. Belgium is a made up country of two warring factions. I'd rather point to - well - pretty much every other functioning and mature democracy in the world (or even the UK outside of the Westminster elections). Supporters of First Past the Post are usually supporters of one of the two main parties, especially the Tories, who massively benefit from the system. Speaking of which, the Tories are proposing to bring FPTP back for London, without even bothering to ask Londoners what they want (and other local elections too). Disgraceful gerrymandering. www.cityam.com/government-plans-to-change-mayor-of-london-elections-to-first-past-the-post/
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Post by captainconfident on Mar 18, 2021 10:04:38 GMT
Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate.
And the veritable impossibility of holding the government to account because of said majority.
Its a shambles.
Also congratulations to the party that came second in the Dutch elections, D66. It looks for a pragmatic approach to each problem, rather than seeing them in a left-right prism. As an aim, it would be maximising the freedom of the individual within society (perhaps 'social liberals' to Rutte's business orientated Liberal Party). NL used to have the typical left -right parties, but the left has withered away over time leaving this new alignment. If the Dutch had the British party system where the two main parties remain fossilised in power, protected from competition, they would still be ruled by either the Christian Democrats or the Socialist Party (both of which have withered away over the years as their ideas went out of date).
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 18, 2021 10:17:22 GMT
Just don't mention Italy or Belgium. I think you'll find those two countries struggle whatever their electoral system. Indeed, Italy changed to First Past the Post and it was just as bad. Belgium is a made up country of two warring factions. I'd rather point to - well - pretty much every other functioning and mature democracy in the world (or even the UK outside of the Westminster elections). Supporters of First Past the Post are usually supporters of one of the two main parties, especially the Tories, who massively benefit from the system. Speaking of which, the Tories are proposing to bring FPTP back for London, without even bothering to ask Londoners what they want (and other local elections too). Disgraceful gerrymandering. www.cityam.com/government-plans-to-change-mayor-of-london-elections-to-first-past-the-post/Not that Londoners were asked what system they wanted in the first place.
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Post by dan1 on Mar 18, 2021 10:43:40 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-termI agree with you on the electoral system but.... did you have to use Rutte as the example? I mean this is the guy who espoused herd immunity yet when it comes to vaccine adverse events adopts the "precautionary principle". Jesus, that makes my blood boil. Sorry, had to say it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2021 11:22:16 GMT
Just don't mention Italy or Belgium. I said you wouldn't want me to mention them.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 18, 2021 11:38:15 GMT
Bad news, three parties dont have enough for a majority it appears, 2 short. So now the negotiations start, hopefully will be a bit quicker than the 7 months last time. Only 14 other parties to choose from. Havent seen voting % whether they got 50% of vote to represent a majority of voters.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 12:15:50 GMT
I think you'll find those two countries struggle whatever their electoral system. Indeed, Italy changed to First Past the Post and it was just as bad. Belgium is a made up country of two warring factions. I'd rather point to - well - pretty much every other functioning and mature democracy in the world (or even the UK outside of the Westminster elections). Supporters of First Past the Post are usually supporters of one of the two main parties, especially the Tories, who massively benefit from the system. Speaking of which, the Tories are proposing to bring FPTP back for London, without even bothering to ask Londoners what they want (and other local elections too). Disgraceful gerrymandering. www.cityam.com/government-plans-to-change-mayor-of-london-elections-to-first-past-the-post/Not that Londoners were asked what system they wanted in the first place. That's a fair point. Although nor were the Scots on their system, or the Welsh on theirs. Nevertheless, any of: a referendum, a decision by elected London representatives, or (perhaps best of all) an independent commission, would be preferable to Pritti Patel changing the system for partisan reasons and using a referendum specifically on the Westminster election system from 10 years ago as justification.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 12:21:35 GMT
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 12:23:20 GMT
Just don't mention Italy or Belgium. I said you wouldn't want me to mention them. Touche. Actually, I'm glad you did as it is the usual rejoinder to any suggestion for PR, ignoring that the most successful and stable countries in Europe use various forms of PR.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Mar 18, 2021 12:24:06 GMT
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Mar 18, 2021 12:26:07 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-termI agree with you on the electoral system but.... did you have to use Rutte as the example? I mean this is the guy who espoused herd immunity yet when it comes to vaccine adverse events adopts the "precautionary principle". Jesus, that makes my blood boil. Sorry, had to say it. It's not in support of Rutte - not my cup of tea in many ways either - it's the example that you can have a stable and successful government, for many terms, when the winning party gets just 25% of the vote.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2021 14:22:48 GMT
The trouble is that all we are discussing is a method to choose our elite. Those who do not get the elite they want then go off and try and change the method of selection to get a different elite. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard people saying I want a different mechanism when really they want a different result. Don't think this happens only at state level, but city, village council and club.
I am chair of 2 organisations and a member of one other.
The best of all of these is an organisation without constitution.... but I would not want that organisation to have control of the nuclear button.
The most stressful is one with 15 different governing documents.... I would not want that organisation to have the nuclear button either.
The more energy that goes into the rules the less energy goes into getting things done
Given the climate change crisis I think you are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic
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dovap
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Post by dovap on Mar 18, 2021 16:08:37 GMT
'Overwhelming' victory
35 / 150
cracking - time for a schmoke
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