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Post by wiseclerk on Nov 23, 2023 14:34:10 GMT
The only problem is that while it was an overwhelming victory, under the Dutch PR system he is only expected to receive 37 out of 150 seats. I guess all the supporters of PR on these boards will be watching with interest to see developments. Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government? He got 23.5% of the votes and 37 out of 150 seats (=24.7%). Where do you see a mathematical problem with that?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 23, 2023 14:38:05 GMT
Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government? This must be a new definition of "overwhelming majority"... | Party | Leader | Vote % | Seats (out of 150) | Seats +/- | | PVV | Geert Wilders | 23.5 | 37 | +20 | | GL/PvdA | Frans Timmermans | 15.5 | 25 | +8 | | VVD | Dilan Yeşilgöz-Zegerius | 15.1 | 24 | −10 | | NSC | Pieter Omtzigt | 12.8 | 20 | New | | D66 | Rob Jetten | 6.2 | 9 | −15 | | BBB | Caroline van der Plas | 4.6 | 7 | +6 | | CDA | Henri Bontenbal | 3.3 | 5 | −10 | | SP | Lilian Marijnissen | 3.1 | 5 | −4 |
(Plus another 7 parties with <3%/5 seats)
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 23, 2023 15:23:00 GMT
One thing for sure, no voting system is perfect especially voters do not always understand what they are voting for especially the choices are limited or even useless.
How many times we have been asked to vote for those loans? The common goal is simple, 100% capital returned and interest paid correctly.
In election, voters just want the best solution and get things done properly according to all people will.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 23, 2023 16:49:21 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-term Veteran anti-Islam populist leader Geert Wilders has won a dramatic victory in the Dutch general election, based on a manifesto that includes: - zero net imigration
- ban the Koran
- referendum on leaving the EU
The only problem is that while it was an overwhelming victory, under the Dutch PR system he is only expected to receive 37 out of 150 seats. I guess all the supporters of PR on these boards will be watching with interest to see developments. Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government? I thought the "ban the Koran" was on the sidelines ( for now)
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 23, 2023 17:24:11 GMT
"zero net immigration" also seems to meet the test for some of "extreme right wing".
If that is extreme right wing, what would a policy of send 'em back be? Extreme-extreme right wing?
The left and liberal's deliberate characterisation of middle-right-wing policies as being "extreme right" is partly what is moving voters towards the extremes in the first place.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 23, 2023 20:25:09 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-term Veteran anti-Islam populist leader Geert Wilders has won a dramatic victory in the Dutch general election, based on a manifesto that includes: - zero net imigration
- ban the Koran
- referendum on leaving the EU
The only problem is that while it was an overwhelming victory, under the Dutch PR system he is only expected to receive 37 out of 150 seats. I guess all the supporters of PR on these boards will be watching with interest to see developments. Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government? He got 23.6% of the votes. That is not an overwhelming victory and certainly not an overwhelming majority! So yes, it is a very fair and reasonable outcome that he needs to find parties representing a larger proportion of the electorate's votes if he wants to govern.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 23, 2023 21:58:44 GMT
Yet another example of how a proportional electoral system gives both representation and stability. Netherlands PM Rutte wins a fourth term, his party is the largest one with 35/150 seats, and he leads a fourth consecutive government that is representative of the majority of people's views. Mature, effective and consensual democracy, unlike the sham we have here of huge Parliamentary majorities allowing the imposition of policies supported by only a minority of the electorate. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/netherlands-election-mark-rutte-on-course-to-win-fourth-term Veteran anti-Islam populist leader Geert Wilders has won a dramatic victory in the Dutch general election, based on a manifesto that includes: - zero net imigration
- ban the Koran
- referendum on leaving the EU
The only problem is that while it was an overwhelming victory, under the Dutch PR system he is only expected to receive 37 out of 150 seats. I guess all the supporters of PR on these boards will be watching with interest to see developments. Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government?well I guess that depends on one's definition of 'majority', let alone 'overwhelming majority'. If the defintion of 'majority' is 'not a majority' as is the case here, then for sure, yes. 
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 23, 2023 22:52:54 GMT
Veteran anti-Islam populist leader Geert Wilders has won a dramatic victory in the Dutch general election, based on a manifesto that includes: - zero net imigration
- ban the Koran
- referendum on leaving the EU
The only problem is that while it was an overwhelming victory, under the Dutch PR system he is only expected to receive 37 out of 150 seats. I guess all the supporters of PR on these boards will be watching with interest to see developments. Could it be fair and reasonable that a party that achieves an overwhelming majority at an election doesn't get into government?well I guess that depends on one's definition of 'majority', let alone 'overwhelming majority'. If the defintion of 'majority' is 'not a majority' as is the case here, then for sure, yes. Using what definition of "majority" leads you to believe the largest number is not a majority ?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 24, 2023 0:02:38 GMT
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 24, 2023 9:01:48 GMT
well I guess that depends on one's definition of 'majority', let alone 'overwhelming majority'. If the defintion of 'majority' is 'not a majority' as is the case here, then for sure, yes. Using what definition of "majority" leads you to believe the largest number is not a majority ? using the standard English use of the term. As well as its definition in mathematics (I recall you said you were better at maths than English at some point). But not of course its use in relation to age. as pointed out by IFISAcava, if the term "plurality" had been substituted, or even "relative majority" then the term would fine. But then it would also be abundantly clear that was not a "majority", thus not having that party automatically delivered into government is precisely what PR IS about. I suspect that agent69 has simply been misled - reasonably - by the rather ambiguous language of "overwhelming victory" in the article.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 24, 2023 9:45:16 GMT
well I guess that depends on one's definition of 'majority', let alone 'overwhelming majority'. If the defintion of 'majority' is 'not a majority' as is the case here, then for sure, yes. Using what definition of "majority" leads you to believe the largest number is not a majority ? The actual dictionary one... More than half. www.dictionary.com/browse/majorityIn the case of the Dutch parliament, 76 seats - the number a coalition or party require to form a government. That number would require Wilders to form an alliance with two of the other three largest parties - anything else is going to require a raft of the small onesy-twosies. One of the other three is led by a Turkish Kurd Muslim immigrant, whose mother is the head of a Dutch refugee organisation. Another of the three is led by a former EU Commissioner. The last is a centrist who outright ruled out any alliance with Wilders early on.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 24, 2023 13:59:25 GMT
Perhaps you overlooked this paragraph right at the start of your source's definition of majority? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MajorityIn British English the term "majority" is also alternatively used to refer to the winning margin, i.e., the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher. Other related terms containing the word "majority" have their own meanings, which may sometimes be inconsistent in usage.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 24, 2023 14:31:18 GMT
Perhaps you overlooked this paragraph right at the start of your source's definition of majority? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MajorityIn British English the term "majority" is also alternatively used to refer to the winning margin, i.e., the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher. Other related terms containing the word "majority" have their own meanings, which may sometimes be inconsistent in usage.So you're saying that 12 seats out of 150, or 12% of the vote, is "overwhelming"?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Nov 24, 2023 14:56:38 GMT
Perhaps you overlooked this paragraph right at the start of your source's definition of majority? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MajorityIn British English the term "majority" is also alternatively used to refer to the winning margin, i.e., the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher. Other related terms containing the word "majority" have their own meanings, which may sometimes be inconsistent in usage.The first line of that source: "A majority, also called a simple majority or absolute majority to distinguish it from related terms, is more than half of the total." I agree that majority CAN be used in terms of the winner of an individual seat in a FPTP system (even if that is probably a mathematically incorrect usage and plurality would be better if less than 50%), but it is NEVER used in terms of a parliamentary system. We refer to a hung parliament, or no overall control, or minority government then, we absolutely do not call the largest party the winner of a majority.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 24, 2023 15:10:59 GMT
Perhaps you overlooked this paragraph right at the start of your source's definition of majority? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MajorityIn British English the term "majority" is also alternatively used to refer to the winning margin, i.e., the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher. Other related terms containing the word "majority" have their own meanings, which may sometimes be inconsistent in usage.The first line of that source: "A majority, also called a simple majority or absolute majority to distinguish it from related terms, is more than half of the total." I agree that majority CAN be used in terms of the winner of an individual seat in a FPTP system (even if that is probably a mathematically incorrect usage and plurality would be better if less than 50%), but it is NEVER used in terms of a parliamentary system. We refer to a hung parliament, or no overall control, or minority government then, we absolutely do not call the largest party the winner of a majority. Well, we absolutely DO use that usage in parliamentary terms. This MP got 46% of the vote in his seat. His majority was 2,500 votes. The Conservatives got 365 seats out of 650 at the last election. This gives them a majority of 80 seats.
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