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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 21, 2022 20:57:22 GMT
I see that Putin's speech is currently ongoing, with him essentially expressing what he has previously written and said: that Russia's destiny is essentially to re-establish the territory of the Soviet Union. What is not yet clear - its ongoing - is what is going to happen beyond recognising the breakaway regions as separate from Ukraine. Presumably he will move his forces into those regions. But is he going to wait a few days, increase false flag activities and then use that - infringement of the breakaway regions - as excuse for invasion of the rest of Ukraine. The latter is looking increasing likely. Very depressing times. But what is the point of him having an excuse? Nobody is going to believe it's legitimate, and it isn't going to change the call for sanctions and restrictions. Primarily Internals not externals.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 21, 2022 21:22:25 GMT
I see that Putin's speech is currently ongoing, with him essentially expressing what he has previously written and said: that Russia's destiny is essentially to re-establish the territory of the Soviet Union. What is not yet clear - its ongoing - is what is going to happen beyond recognising the breakaway regions as separate from Ukraine. Presumably he will move his forces into those regions. But is he going to wait a few days, increase false flag activities and then use that - infringement of the breakaway regions - as excuse for invasion of the rest of Ukraine. The latter is looking increasing likely. Very depressing times.Thankfully won't happen (i.e. regime change full scale invasion) and even if it does there will be zero resistance in Ukraine. Having lived there on and off for the past few years, own property there and have now "fled" just in case, its pretty sad t hat most folk continue to agree with each other about how evil russia is, how we're the good guys and have no interest in hearing a different view born out of experience. Why even have a debate? Russia is a country and a people: I don't believe "Russia" is evil at all. However personally I would find it morally quite difficult to justify the behaviours of an autocrat who suppresses internal dialogue, has near full control of all internal media channels and uses it purely to push their own agenda, feels it is entirely reasonable to authorise/order the poisoning of citizens of his own country, completely corrupts and co-opts all branches of govt (so for example not even the slightest semblance of independent judiciary and ins its places ensures one that just does the leaders bidding etc. etc. One could go on. Others may feel that setup has moral equivalence with liberal (western) democratic principles,. That is not something I can subscribe to, however flawed they may sometimes be in practise. * I can of course recognise that a "people" can have a different historical perspective and feeling towards a particular situation - in this case the breakup of the Soviet Union, the 'risks' posed by their Western borders, concerns over alignment of eastern european/western border countries with NATO. Though of course the Russian population might have a somewhat different perception of how that plays out in the 21st century if they had a free press where there was able to be the 'debate' that you suggest. Nonetheless, the would be new 'Emperor of Russia' doesn't in reality really care a jot about the immediate prior paragraph: other than to the extent to which he can manipulate it and how it can allow him to 'leave a legacy'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2022 22:12:02 GMT
Happy to have a debate
Many Russians I know are fine
But a debate requires you to listen to the western side as well as spout RT prop at us.
Russia's leader likes destabilised countries on his borders. He understands his gov is a gang of crooks so only feels comfortable when he has other crooks around him.
Ukraine is doing well financially under western influence, better than most Russians outside the top two cities.
Please stop taking your feed from RT and start reading more of the free press. Yes you have to read more than one to get the truth, but right now you listen to one to be lied to.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 22, 2022 8:20:49 GMT
I see that Putin's speech is currently ongoing, with him essentially expressing what he has previously written and said: that Russia's destiny is essentially to re-establish the territory of the Soviet Union. What is not yet clear - its ongoing - is what is going to happen beyond recognising the breakaway regions as separate from Ukraine. Presumably he will move his forces into those regions. But is he going to wait a few days, increase false flag activities and then use that - infringement of the breakaway regions - as excuse for invasion of the rest of Ukraine. The latter is looking increasing likely. Very depressing times. (i.e. regime change full scale invasion) and even if it does there will be zero resistance in Ukraine. Having lived there on and off for the past few years, own property there and have now "fled" just in case, its pretty sad that most folk continue to agree with each other about how evil russia is, how we're the good guys and have no interest in hearing a different view born out of experience. Why even have a debate? Hedging bets a bit?
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Post by captainconfident on Feb 23, 2022 10:01:45 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 23, 2022 11:03:42 GMT
Best sum-up of the latest shenanigans...
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Post by overthehill on Feb 23, 2022 11:20:43 GMT
The tweet couldn't be more serious or factual, the people being identified won't be getting killed in action, losing family or queueing for anything.
"The EU’s foreign policy chief Josep Borrell Fontelles tweeted last night that, for some, there’d now be no more shopping in Milan, partying in Saint-Tropez or diamonds in Antwerp! The tweet, ridiculed in some quarters for not matching the seriousness of the situation, has since been deleted."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2022 11:52:15 GMT
Russia is a country and a people: I don't believe "Russia" is evil at all. Indeed, it is possible to hate a government without hating a country or its people. The conflation of the two things, ie hating the government makes you a traitor or an 'enemy of the people', is a favourite tactic of autocratic regimes.
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Post by gramsky on Feb 23, 2022 12:01:50 GMT
Best sum-up of the latest shenanigans... This is a naive, childish over simplified view of the situation and nowhere near the true reality.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 23, 2022 12:02:15 GMT
Russia is a country and a people: I don't believe "Russia" is evil at all. Indeed, it is possible to hate a government without hating a country or its people. The conflation of the two things, ie hating the government makes you a traitor or an 'enemy of the people', is a favourite tactic of autocratic regimes. See also: Hating the actions of the Israeli government makes you antisemitic...
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james100
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Post by james100 on Feb 23, 2022 13:18:54 GMT
This is a naive, childish over simplified view of the situation and nowhere near the true reality. I am interested to know whether you views expressed on p1 of this thread have changed, gramsky.
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sussexpeer
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If you don't make a plan, you'll end up where you're headed.
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Post by sussexpeer on Feb 23, 2022 14:39:00 GMT
Best sum-up of the latest shenanigans... That's amazing. The rabbit holding the pick-axe even has Putin's eyes.
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Post by gramsky on Feb 23, 2022 14:46:11 GMT
This is a naive, childish over simplified view of the situation and nowhere near the true reality. I am interested to know whether you views expressed on p1 of this thread have changed, gramsky. No, but it is a many faceted and complex situation going back through 70+ years of history which I have not the time to write about here at present and if I had, and the ability, I would be a journalist.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Feb 23, 2022 16:05:16 GMT
I can understand why those who know something about the situation can't be bothered to post here.
Surprisingly Banks sums up the context fairly well. Although he doesn't go on to say that Zelensky is being utterly played by the US who want to keep Russia in check. Zelensky was voted in reasonably fairly, but I don't think most Ukranians expected the lurch to the West to be so sudden, so soon and involve receiving lots of military hardware & special forces training.
Considering every single adult Ukranian speaks native/fluent russian (yes even in the western side of the country) they started the processes of banning the language right down to how people should greet each other in the street.
In other words the country moved way to the nationalist "Right" - the sort of politics many on here would abhor but don't realise it as still get all their news from Sky/BBC etc... I can only suggest reading from vehemently different sources. And yes that includes rt to see directly what they are saying (until the UK bans it)
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 23, 2022 17:21:16 GMT
"Arron Banks and Nigel Farage blame the EU"
Hold the front page.
The West "humiliated" Russia after the cold war and "ransacked" their resources.
Gotcha.
So nothing whatsoever to do with the now-oligarchs and "New Russians" paying pennies for the share vouchers issued to allow the citizens to buy into the newly-privatised gas companies, etc. All the gangster-capitalism in the Yeltsin years was internal... "Katastroika", I believe it's termed.
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