ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Feb 27, 2022 18:53:11 GMT
I know I am receiving incredibly one sided information that is massively pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but it's remarkable how badly some of Russia's newest kit has performed eg T-90s being knocked out by NLAWs. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine will "win" (can anybody "win" in a situation like this?), but it does mean the price Russia is paying is going up by the minute. It also gives me much greater confidence that NATO could handle Russia robustly should the need arise. Of course Putin's comments about raising Russia's nuclear alert level (good job Liz!) are... pretty bloody sccary. How can he back down? What's his way out? Most of the Russian kit deployed olis 2nd grade ... T90s are obsolete, main tanks are T80 upgrades & T14
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 27, 2022 18:53:42 GMT
But it appears that the same rules do not apply in UK
Oil trading is not sanctioned, though, unlike cars. So you can sell Russia fuel for their tanks, but not a new car.
Interesting priorities.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 27, 2022 18:57:48 GMT
Most of the Russian kit deployed olis 2nd grade ... T90s are obsolete, main tanks are T80 upgrades & T14 Cheers, will do a bit more research.
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Feb 27, 2022 19:12:04 GMT
I know I am receiving incredibly one sided information that is massively pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but it's remarkable how badly some of Russia's newest kit has performed eg T-90s being knocked out by NLAWs. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine will "win" (can anybody "win" in a situation like this?), but it does mean the price Russia is paying is going up by the minute. It also gives me much greater confidence that NATO could handle Russia robustly should the need arise. Of course Putin's comments about raising Russia's nuclear alert level (good job Liz!) are... pretty bloody sccary. How can he back down? What's his way out?
Do or does Russia or Putin really ever back down (?). Revolt or get replaced is the best bet
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 27, 2022 19:15:28 GMT
Most of the Russian kit deployed olis 2nd grade ... T90s are obsolete, main tanks are T80 upgrades & T14 Cheers, will do a bit more research. Sky were reporting that many of the 800 rockets launched by Russia in the lat 4 days failed to deploy correctly. But as we know, truth is the first casualty of war.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 27, 2022 19:37:58 GMT
I know I am receiving incredibly one sided information that is massively pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but it's remarkable how badly some of Russia's newest kit has performed eg T-90s being knocked out by NLAWs. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine will "win" (can anybody "win" in a situation like this?), but it does mean the price Russia is paying is going up by the minute. It also gives me much greater confidence that NATO could handle Russia robustly should the need arise. Of course Putin's comments about raising Russia's nuclear alert level (good job Liz!) are... pretty bloody sccary. How can he back down? What's his way out? Which feature 'fire and forget' technology. What could go wrong?
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 27, 2022 21:18:08 GMT
I'm just cynical enough to believe that, with the logistical problems the Russians are having, they have been ordered not to waste ammo on civilians. Yes, I am very cynical. Ammo! He's got a forward gear ... hes more likely to have shortage of fuel so wasting it going backwards isn't the logical tactical decision. I really shouldn't have laughed at this. But its a valuable part of the human condition to find (dark) humour in terrible circumstances. Great bit of observational/situational humour. For a dark time.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 27, 2022 21:40:30 GMT
I know I am receiving incredibly one sided information that is massively pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but it's remarkable how badly some of Russia's newest kit has performed eg T-90s being knocked out by NLAWs. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine will "win" (can anybody "win" in a situation like this?), but it does mean the price Russia is paying is going up by the minute. It also gives me much greater confidence that NATO could handle Russia robustly should the need arise. Of course Putin's comments about raising Russia's nuclear alert level (good job Liz!) are... pretty bloody sccary. How can he back down? What's his way out? Most of the Russian kit deployed olis 2nd grade ... T90s are obsolete, main tanks are T80 upgrades & T14 Interesting. You've commented before that you think that the Russian land forces kit is at best 'out of date' if not obsolescent (not your words, my interpretation). you mention the T14: I was (strongly) under the impression that was barely into full production and certainly wasn't in operational service yet. Have I missed something ? The T80 is old (in design) but that is true of pretty much all the main powers that have an MBT capability. The Abrams came into service in 1980. The T90 in '92 but was an upgrade of the T72 (I believe). In the UK, although Challenger II didn't come into service until 98, it is of course an upgrade (at least same platform) as Challenger I, which itself came into service in the early 80's. The Leopard is also ancient, even if the current variants are arguable a better platform than the Challenger. Of course its not just the platform that matters, but the kit inside plus the pointy thing out the front. And all of these have gone through upgrades. But nonetheless, all the key protoganists have at best end of cold war kit when it comes to MTBs, with the Russians arguably further ahead than the rest when it comes to replacing them, in the shape of the T14. The rest are still figuring out 'what next'. You may konw more about this than me.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 27, 2022 21:46:40 GMT
Oil trading is not sanctioned, though, unlike cars. So you can sell Russia fuel for their tanks, but not a new car.
Interesting priorities.
I find it surprising that oil from Orkney is going to Russia, don't they have plenty of oil themselves? Do we know where this tanker is going from Orkney? Just curious I don't understand.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 27, 2022 21:48:29 GMT
Cheers, will do a bit more research. Sky were reporting that many of the 800 rockets launched by Russia in the lat 4 days failed to deploy correctly. But as we know, truth is the first casualty of war. Just practising?
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 27, 2022 21:54:46 GMT
Sky were reporting that many of the 800 rockets launched by Russia in the lat 4 days failed to deploy correctly. But as we know, truth is the first casualty of war. that's very clever, and very funny.
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jaswells
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Post by jaswells on Feb 27, 2022 22:35:39 GMT
Need a laugh, why was it clever/funny?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 28, 2022 7:48:43 GMT
So you can sell Russia fuel for their tanks, but not a new car.
Interesting priorities.
I find it surprising that oil from Orkney is going to Russia, don't they have plenty of oil themselves? Do we know where this tanker is going from Orkney? Just curious I don't understand. "Russian owned" does not necessarily mean it's going to Russia. Liberian flag, recent ports have been US and UK. www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/NS-CHAMPION-IMO-9299719-MMSI-636012384
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 28, 2022 8:14:36 GMT
I find it surprising that oil from Orkney is going to Russia, don't they have plenty of oil themselves? Do we know where this tanker is going from Orkney? Just curious I don't understand. "Russian owned" does not necessarily mean it's going to Russia. Liberian flag, recent ports have been US and UK. www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/NS-CHAMPION-IMO-9299719-MMSI-636012384So this is not about the embargo on goods going to Russia (as in the French stopping the cars going to Russia) it is more broadly about whether any Russian ships should be allowed to land in the UK, which has not yet been decided.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 28, 2022 8:15:42 GMT
I know I am receiving incredibly one sided information that is massively pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but it's remarkable how badly some of Russia's newest kit has performed eg T-90s being knocked out by NLAWs. It doesn't necessarily mean that Ukraine will "win" (can anybody "win" in a situation like this?), but it does mean the price Russia is paying is going up by the minute. It also gives me much greater confidence that NATO could handle Russia robustly should the need arise. Of course Putin's comments about raising Russia's nuclear alert level (good job Liz!) are... pretty bloody sccary. How can he back down? What's his way out? Most of the Russian kit deployed olis 2nd grade ... T90s are obsolete, main tanks are T80 upgrades & T14I thought the T14 was not yet in real production run, and had not as yet entered service. Its true that their MBTs are all of 80's/90's vintage (and in cases are evolutions), but the same is pretty much true of all the main military powers MBTs is it not ? The M1 Abrams entered service in the US in 1980 (yes like all others its been evolved), the UKs Challenger 2 while entering service in '98 is based on Challenger 1 which is of early '80's vintage, and the in-service Leopard 2 is equally antiquated. Basically all the major land forces had plans to replace their existing MBTs, plans which were pretty much dropped after the "end" of the cold war, and which in the case of the UK is back on the table but arguably a typical pigs ear by way of deciding to to yet again upgrade the Challenger; DE and FR are in design phase and have been for years, and I don't think the US has actually put its M1 replacement program back on the table, yet. Much of the West's land army equipment focus in the last 15/20 years has been on counter insurgency (for want of a better phrase) capability because of where they have been mostly deployed. Of the major powers, Russia is probably the most advanced in refreshing its MBT capability with the T14 program.
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