angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jul 6, 2024 18:41:50 GMT
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. NATO air power involvement to date? Bar ISR nil. NATO naval involvement? Nil. NATO ground combat power? A hundred or so tanks, a few hundred out of date AFVs, ATGMs, ammo, SAMs / SHORAD. The "NATO MIC" has barely woken up. To be fair there isn't a NATO MIC, there is an US MIC & then a few token bits elsewhere. The capacity of Europe inc UK to produce ammo is currently very limited & entirely predicated on US supply chains. Even with the US production is far behind Russia but then one is running a war economy & the other isn't. If the US tried running a war economy their cities would go up in flames. Same would happen if a few thousand body bags were shipped home. US has no stomach for war even though their corrupt political class is addicted to the money from the MIC, I guess that is why they keep starting wars, spending countless billions and then running away as soon as the bullets start flying in the wrong direction.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 6, 2024 21:19:27 GMT
Need to be an agreement that doesn't depend on trust. Can't leave the status quo. Do go on... What form of agreement can you think of that would be somehow watertight in binding somebody like Putin? A big show of force along the line I guess.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 6, 2024 21:19:54 GMT
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. NATO air power involvement to date? Bar ISR nil. NATO naval involvement? Nil. NATO ground combat power? A hundred or so tanks, a few hundred out of date AFVs, ATGMs, ammo, SAMs / SHORAD. The "NATO MIC" has barely woken up. To be fair there isn't a NATO MIC, there is an US MIC & then a few token bits elsewhere. The capacity of Europe inc UK to produce ammo is currently very limited & entirely predicated on US supply chains. Even with the US production is far behind Russia but then one is running a war economy & the other isn't. No argument with that. My point was more that Ukraine has fought Russia to a standstill with NATO hand-me-downs, with limited targeting, and basically no naval / air component. Saying that Russia has "destroyed the NATO MIC on the battlefield", or whatever was said, is errant nonsense.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 6, 2024 23:39:02 GMT
Just to add... I am in no way complacent about Western / NATO capabilities. To varying degrees, across varying national capabilities (magnify many times if you subtract the US from NATO):- Not enough political will Not enough interoperability Not enough support (naval or air) eg transport / in-flight refueling / ISR Extremely limited magazine depth White elephants eg QE class carriers Woeful under-investment eg German Army Woeful procurement programs eg Ajax Stupidly low numbers of troops eg UK land forces at ~75k, a historic low Almost insignificant numbers of tanks (at least outside of Poland) for a full effort peer on peer combat. Probable insufficient investment in drone warfare / counters Flaky outliers (eg a Le Pen government ceasing to supply Ukraine with Scalp etc) But all that having been said... if Russia messed with NATO, with a signed up US, it would get its teeth kicked down its throat. NATO doesn't have enough capacity to wage a long term fight to the death peer on peer war against Russia. But neither does Russia. And NATO has vastly more capability to absolutely wreck Russia than vice versa(*). If Trump wins, and were Trump to lean in an isolationist / Pacific-first direction... it would be a lot trickier. * Absenting strategic nuclear exchanges. And if that happens, frankly, who gives a  . |
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 6, 2024 23:51:41 GMT
If the US tried running a war economy their cities would go up in flames. Same would happen if a few thousand body bags were shipped home. US has no stomach for war even though their corrupt political class is addicted to the money from the MIC, I guess that is why they keep starting wars, spending countless billions and then running away as soon as the bullets start flying in the wrong direction. I dare you to say that to current US service men and women. I dare you to say that to the face of the children and grandchildren of US service men and women who died in North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, Utah and Omaha beeches, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany... all the naval battles in the Pacific, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and every other horrific conflict over some small island on the way to Japan. The US is far from perfect. Your ignorant contempt for the US is disgusting.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Jul 7, 2024 4:14:46 GMT
But the question is with a show of force along the line is , where is the line the Brandenburg gate?. If the US walks away old Soviet plans were the French German border everything east of that gone.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jul 7, 2024 6:43:01 GMT
If the US tried running a war economy their cities would go up in flames. Same would happen if a few thousand body bags were shipped home. US has no stomach for war even though their corrupt political class is addicted to the money from the MIC, I guess that is why they keep starting wars, spending countless billions and then running away as soon as the bullets start flying in the wrong direction. I dare you to say that to current US service men and women. I dare you to say that to the face of the children and grandchildren of US service men and women who died in North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, Utah and Omaha beeches, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany... all the naval battles in the Pacific, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and every other horrific conflict over some small island on the way to Japan. The US is far from perfect. Your ignorant contempt for the US is disgusting. I am quite a big fan of the US (I even have a US passport since I grew up there), but I am against their totally corrupt, warmongering political class. Obviously I am not talking about US in WW2. I am talking about the US in 2024. I am sure most US service personal would agree with me, especially if they were being asked to fight a war of aggression against a superpower like Russia or China in which they would have a good chance of not coming home. The way the US Military is being used is totally Unconstitutional and against the principles on which the US was founded.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 7, 2024 7:29:13 GMT
Do go on... What form of agreement can you think of that would be somehow watertight in binding somebody like Putin? A big show of force along the line I guess. Ooookay. But not this big show of force now? A different but similar one later. Perhaps the Baltic states, after Ukraine's been handed over.
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Jul 7, 2024 7:46:04 GMT
If the US tried running a war economy their cities would go up in flames. Same would happen if a few thousand body bags were shipped home. US has no stomach for war even though their corrupt political class is addicted to the money from the MIC, I guess that is why they keep starting wars, spending countless billions and then running away as soon as the bullets start flying in the wrong direction. I dare you to say that to current US service men and women. I dare you to say that to the face of the children and grandchildren of US service men and women who died in North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, Utah and Omaha beeches, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany... all the naval battles in the Pacific, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and every other horrific conflict over some small island on the way to Japan. The US is far from perfect. Your ignorant contempt for the US is disgusting. This would be the nation of 'forever wars'? And what you presumably have against Trump is that he DIDN'T begin a war whilst in office? Gee, did Putin arrange for that too?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 7, 2024 12:34:05 GMT
I dare you to say that to current US service men and women. I dare you to say that to the face of the children and grandchildren of US service men and women who died in North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, Utah and Omaha beeches, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany... all the naval battles in the Pacific, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and every other horrific conflict over some small island on the way to Japan. The US is far from perfect. Your ignorant contempt for the US is disgusting. I am quite a big fan of the US (I even have a US passport since I grew up there), but I am against their totally corrupt, warmongering political class. Obviously I am not talking about US in WW2. I am talking about the US in 2024. I am sure most US service personal would agree with me, especially if they were being asked to fight a war of aggression against a superpower like Russia or China in which they would have a good chance of not coming home. The way the US Military is being used is totally Unconstitutional and against the principles on which the US was founded. I'm surprised you replied to him to be honest. The fake emotion used to win the argument "because I said so" is boring. But at least his cards are on the table. The US (and presumably Israel) is right no matter what and we should just yap to the same tune.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 7, 2024 12:38:30 GMT
A big show of force along the line I guess. Ooookay. But not this big show of force now? A different but similar one later. Perhaps the Baltic states, after Ukraine's been handed over. No, we're talking about peace talks. I'm saying a possible result is that Ukraine (and indeed perhaps some of its NATO neighbours and friends) man* a much stronger line to prevent what you fear. * - Is that choice of word ok for you or should I get myself into knots trying to make the sentence woke friendly ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 7, 2024 12:55:01 GMT
Ooookay. But not this big show of force now? A different but similar one later. Perhaps the Baltic states, after Ukraine's been handed over. No, we're talking about peace talks. I'm saying a possible result is that Ukraine (and indeed perhaps some of its NATO neighbours and friends) man* a much stronger line to prevent what you fear. Yes, yes, I know. But you appease Putin now by giving him half of Ukraine, and tying the government in knots as to what they can do. In return, he promises faithfully not to do the same again... ...which even you say you don't trust him not to. Wait a year, and he does - to nobody's surprise, since he got exactly what he wanted last time. Then you're right back in the same place. Funding and arming a war against a Russian invasion to a neighbour. Rinse, repeat.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jul 7, 2024 14:21:17 GMT
I am quite a big fan of the US (I even have a US passport since I grew up there), but I am against their totally corrupt, warmongering political class. Obviously I am not talking about US in WW2. I am talking about the US in 2024. I am sure most US service personal would agree with me, especially if they were being asked to fight a war of aggression against a superpower like Russia or China in which they would have a good chance of not coming home. The way the US Military is being used is totally Unconstitutional and against the principles on which the US was founded. I'm surprised you replied to him to be honest. The fake emotion used to win the argument "because I said so" is boring. But at least his cards are on the table. The US (and presumably Israel) is right no matter what and we should just yap to the same tune. He is basically a victim of the lies and propaganda that is pumped out by the government and MSM. Although an increasing number of people are waking up to the fact the government and MSM lies to them when ever it suits them, there are still some people who for various reasons want to believe whatever the authorities tell them.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 7, 2024 14:41:36 GMT
I'm surprised you replied to him to be honest. The fake emotion used to win the argument "because I said so" is boring. But at least his cards are on the table. The US (and presumably Israel) is right no matter what and we should just yap to the same tune. He is basically a victim of the lies and propaganda that is pumped out by the government and MSM. Although an increasing number of people are waking up to the fact the government and MSM lies to them when ever it suits them, there are still some people who for various reasons want to believe whatever the authorities tell them. Yes, I've always known it but maybe its an age thing but I'm starting to get annoyed by that. I'm not going to list them all here but just picked the first two that entered my head. The Independent newspaper and The Telegraph newspaper for example, will write whatever Evgeny Lebedev, Sultan Muhammad Abuljadayel and the Barclay twins want them to write. Subject of course to government regulation. The latter doesn't seem to prevent headlines which absolutely scream for one party or another during an election. I've just picked 2 papers, I could of course go on. It annoys me that these individual wealthy owners (used to before social media) have so much influence over public opinion and debate. They buy them not to make money but to enjoy the power they bring. It becomes so obvious during election time. Who are these tiny collection of individuals to tell us who we should vote for?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 7, 2024 14:58:49 GMT
... The Telegraph newspaper for example, will write whatever ... the Barclay twins want them to write. We've done this before... One of the Barclay twins has been dead for three years, while the Telegraph was repossessed from the other a year ago. It was bought by Redbird IMI, but they've decided not to keep it, and it's up for auction at the moment. Redbird, of course, manage a lot of money for the UAE sovereign wealth fund. UAE are acting as neutral negotiators in Ukraine, behind at least one prisoner swap. As you say, the Indie is part-owned by Baron Lebedev of Hampton and Siberia... So whether that makes it somehow inherently pro- or anti-Putin is a different question, given that senior was partially responsible for giving VVP the job, and Ukraine have sanctioned them. We do, of course, also circle right back to the (Putin-)Lebedev-BJPiffle (-Brexit) links, especially that Italian castle of compromise. Interesting times...
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