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Post by crabbyoldgit on Aug 12, 2024 8:16:37 GMT
If the Russians get there act together and force the ukr out, likely at some time,barring a total mess, ukr,s history in this war is they will withdrawal in goodish order , limiting their losses and inflicting the maximum cost on their enemies. Provided that occurs they would consider this a success.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 12, 2024 10:30:15 GMT
Here is the only way of preserving this gain in the long term, locking to the Belarusian border. Mountains and broken country to the north would make this new enclave hard to attack. The star is Rylsk, the railway node that supplies this area. Otherwise the plan they divised is to drive about in Russia a bit and then withdrawing. Which makes more sense?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 12, 2024 13:16:42 GMT
Here is the only way of preserving this gain in the long term, locking to the Belarusian border. Mountains and broken country to the north would make this new enclave hard to attack. The star is Rylsk, the railway node that supplies this area. Otherwise the plan they divised is to drive about in Russia a bit and then withdrawing. Which makes more sense? And hopefully trash a good few buildings and vehicles. Cause as many evacuations as possible
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 12, 2024 14:06:42 GMT
You're very belligerent all of a sudden, michaelc!
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 12, 2024 14:38:53 GMT
You're very belligerent all of a sudden, michaelc! I suspect in common with most Ukrainians I want an end to the war asap but I will 100% be cheering any progress made by Ukraine on the front lines so long as escalation, nukes or ww3 doesn't look to be on the cards. Watching Russians suffer is good but does Moscow care? By the way a few Russians here on the beach in Bulgaria. How do they get here? Will double check with wife if they really are Russian or if Ukrainians
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 12, 2024 14:45:59 GMT
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 12, 2024 15:48:07 GMT
By the way a few Russians here on the beach in Bulgaria. I'm off to Thailand again in September. You see a lot of young, single Russian women there. Can't imagine what they are up to.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 12, 2024 16:19:25 GMT
Well I didn't think of it before but the answer probably is there were many Russians in Bulgaria before the war and even more now - driving up property prices in Sofia and elsewhere. Wife hasn't heard them enough but told me some of the common simple phrases are shared (or alternatively Bulgarians still use the Russian version for hello etc.). Only a few dotted around - I suspect 5 years ago it would have been 80% russians here....
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Aug 12, 2024 17:40:12 GMT
How many marathons from Kursk to the capital. Just 13 Marathons. How far will they dare to go?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 12, 2024 20:44:35 GMT
How many marathons from Kursk to the capital. Just 13 Marathons. How far will they dare to go? Must admit I checked that and you're about right. Another question, would Russia missile its own territory?
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 12, 2024 23:50:45 GMT
I have to admit that there is no sign that the objective I proposed is the objective. But I assure you all that there is a plan. They didn't sit in meetings organising a complex clandestine force accumulation and sign off with, "and once over the border they can all drive around a lot making mischief". The best and worst case objectives are known somewhere, and how the winter front that will need to be held will be laid out. Its not going to be "just pop back to the original jumping off points for Christmas". But the shape of what is intended is not clear at all.
Never stop thinking what your opponent might do. That also goes for the Russians, who might counter with their own attack on this neglected border, maybe south of the current Ukr incursion, where they are currently evacuating the civilians.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 13, 2024 11:40:56 GMT
I have to admit that there is no sign that the objective I proposed is the objective. But I assure you all that there is a plan. They didn't sit in meetings organising a complex clandestine force accumulation and sign off with, "and once over the border they can all drive around a lot making mischief". The best and worst case objectives are known somewhere, and how the winter front that will need to be held will be laid out. Its not going to be "just pop back to the original jumping off points for Christmas". But the shape of what is intended is not clear at all. Never stop thinking what your opponent might do. That also goes for the Russians, who might counter with their own attack on this neglected border, maybe south of the current Ukr incursion, where they are currently evacuating the civilians. I for one quite agree. Of course (in worst case?) that plan could just be driving around causing "mischief" .... I hope its something more substantial. Already its enough for Putin to publicly make a response. Had a quick look at a translated Russian paper (Izvestya) aimed at russians. This was the total text of the headline article (my highlight): The losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in the Kursk direction in one day amounted to 420 soldiers and 55 units of armored vehicles. This was reported on August 13 by the Russian Defense Ministry. “Over the course of a day, the Ukrainian Armed Forces lost up to 420 servicemen, 55 units of armored vehicles, including three tanks, eight armored personnel carriers, an infantry fighting vehicle, 43 armored combat vehicles, 31 vehicles, a multiple launch rocket system launcher, and an artillery piece,” the defense department said in a statement. In total, during the military operations in the Kursk direction, the enemy lost up to 2,030 servicemen, 35 tanks, 31 armored personnel carriers, 18 infantry fighting vehicles, 179 other armored combat vehicles, 78 cars, four anti-aircraft missile systems, two multiple launch rocket system launchers and 14 field artillery guns. The Ministry of Defense also reported that the operation to destroy Ukrainian formations continues.
The fact of the invasion into Russia is somewhat burried as you might expect but you'd think most Russians would know where Kursk is ! The numbers obviously exaggerated but presumably there must be some/significnt losses on the Ukranian side in any attack?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 13, 2024 16:16:35 GMT
I know this is crazy albeit hinted at earlier by another forumite but what if Ukraine did something quite different to what the pundits are suggesting. They are suggesting how and when to pull out or maybe try and hold some ground longer term.
What if they just went hell for leather to Moscow and finished the job Pregozhin started? Raze half of it and then get the hell out ? Presumably there are no defences of any note on the way? No armies standing there? Just go and bomb the sh1t out of it. Yes I know that goes against my worries of nuclear war and it might get just such a response but if the way is clear ? ? ?
Edit: Maybe because I'm at the Black sea I'm a bit more relaxed about any response. A bit selfish I know....
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 13, 2024 17:56:54 GMT
I know this is crazy albeit hinted at earlier by another forumite but what if Ukraine did something quite different to what the pundits are suggesting. They are suggesting how and when to pull out or maybe try and hold some ground longer term. What if they just went hell for leather to Moscow and finished the job Pregozhin started? Raze half of it and then get the hell out ? Presumably there are no defences of any note on the way? No armies standing there? Just go and bomb the sh1t out of it. Yes I know that goes against my worries of nuclear war and it might get just such a response but if the way is clear ? ? ? Edit: Maybe because I'm at the Black sea I'm a bit more relaxed about any response. A bit selfish I know.... 1. Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime under international law 2. Occupying approx 1000km 2 of mostly rural area and around 20-30 villages or so is not the same as attempting to enter and occupy an urban space of 13m people and around 2500km2. With a force of about 10,000 which by then is a good distance from its own border safety. 3. Oh, you were suggesting 'razing' half of it, so it doesn't need occupationg. Even allowing for deliberate exaggeration on that, you'd need nuclear weapons to achieve that. Ukr doesn't have any. (They gave them away in exchange for a security guarantee.....) 4. Despite the paucity of Russian resources now, they'll have the cr*p bombed out of them well before they get close. 5. Then they'll be surrounded 6. Then they'll be annihaliated. 7. If on the other hand they started to get close, the West would have complete kittens and put a stop to it before they started. Especially if they are using western vehicles/weapons etc. 8. And if they did by chance happen to get close and started lobbing substantive conventional artillery shells etc. - which will still be a relative pin prick - Russia will resort to more substantive weapons. Nuclear weapons would be on the table, citing Russian doctrine of first use IF the Russian state is at threat. The capital city amounts to that. other additional objections are available. As of course are other opinions.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 13, 2024 19:44:20 GMT
Any sensible answers ?
If its a cr@p idea I can take it. Regarding it breaking the rules of war gimme a break.
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