angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 786
Member is Online
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 20, 2024 18:41:54 GMT
None of this will make any difference to the war - Ukraine should be trying to enter negotiations. Lets hope the Russian Military do not decide to shut down the Ukrainian power grid this winter, sending the country into anarchy and causing a massive humanitarian/migrant crisis. As a very wise person once said- "When you are in a hole stop digging". Assuming of course the rumours arent correct & Ukraine havent just blown up alot of Russia's long range missile stocks. A lot of resource, 100 drones, for bullets, shells & mortar bombs. I am not saying Russia has not lost quite a bit of munitions, but it will not change the course of the war - Ukraine is very much at then end now and should be trying to negotiate with Russia.
|
|
k6
Posts: 266
Likes: 161
|
Post by k6 on Sept 20, 2024 20:37:57 GMT
Assuming of course the rumours arent correct & Ukraine havent just blown up alot of Russia's long range missile stocks. A lot of resource, 100 drones, for bullets, shells & mortar bombs. I am not saying Russia has not lost quite a bit of munitions, but it will not change the course of the war - Ukraine is very much at then end now and should be trying to negotiate with Russia. russia lost quite a lot and not " quite a bit ". Ukraine should be given support till russia gets on its knees. russia is a barbaric country with a barbaric mentality. it does not fit neither in Europe nor in asia. And Stop hopping for russia to not do this or that to ukraine. we all know you have a job to do in here
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 786
Member is Online
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 21, 2024 7:56:29 GMT
I am not saying Russia has not lost quite a bit of munitions, but it will not change the course of the war - Ukraine is very much at then end now and should be trying to negotiate with Russia. russia lost quite a lot and not " quite a bit ". Ukraine should be given support till russia gets on its knees. russia is a barbaric country with a barbaric mentality. it does not fit neither in Europe nor in asia. And Stop hopping for russia to not do this or that to ukraine. we all know you have a job to do in here Russia has a vast military industrial complex backed up by the vast natural resources of Russia. I saw some estimates that even if the entire depo has been destroyed it is basically 2 days supplies for the Russian front line. With arms supplies and support from the US to Ukraine coming to an end it should be very obvious to anyone (including yourself) that this war is over and Ukraine needs to try to reach some kind of settlement ASAP. What ever you think of Russia they are "rational actors" and can be negotiated with - they do not want to see Ukraine collapse as a functioning country since this is not in their interest. In my opinion Ukraine needs to enter negotiations with Russia based on the foundation they will agree to remain neutral in the conflict between the US and Russia/China etc.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 8:03:54 GMT
russia lost quite a lot and not " quite a bit ". Ukraine should be given support till russia gets on its knees. russia is a barbaric country with a barbaric mentality. it does not fit neither in Europe nor in asia. And Stop hopping for russia to not do this or that to ukraine. we all know you have a job to do in here Russia has a vast military industrial complex backed up by the vast natural resources of Russia. I saw some estimates that even if the entire depo has been destroyed it is basically 2 days supplies for the Russian front line. With arms supplies and support from the US to Ukraine coming to an end it should be very obvious to anyone (including yourself) that this war is over and Ukraine needs to try to reach some of kind settlement ASAP. What ever you think of Russia they can be negotiated with and do not want to destroy Ukraine since this is not in their interest to do this.As so clearly demonstrated with Mariupol, Avdiyivka, Bakhmut, Rubizhne, Popasna etc. etc.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 786
Member is Online
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 21, 2024 8:07:58 GMT
Russia has a vast military industrial complex backed up by the vast natural resources of Russia. I saw some estimates that even if the entire depo has been destroyed it is basically 2 days supplies for the Russian front line. With arms supplies and support from the US to Ukraine coming to an end it should be very obvious to anyone (including yourself) that this war is over and Ukraine needs to try to reach some of kind settlement ASAP. What ever you think of Russia they can be negotiated with and do not want to destroy Ukraine since this is not in their interest to do this.As so clearly demonstrated with Mariupol, Avdiyivka, Bakhmut, Rubizhne, Popasna etc. etc. I am talking about the continuation of Ukraine as a functioning society and not collapsing. Yes Russia will take large parts of Eastern Ukraine (which with the exit of US support is now inevitable) but I believe Ukraine through negotiations and by agreeing to remain neutral can continue to exist as a country.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,704
Likes: 2,981
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Sept 21, 2024 13:33:31 GMT
I am not saying Russia has not lost quite a bit of munitions, but it will not change the course of the war - Ukraine is very much at then end now and should be trying to negotiate with Russia. russia lost quite a lot and not " quite a bit ". Ukraine should be given support till russia gets on its knees. russia is a barbaric country with a barbaric mentality. it does not fit neither in Europe nor in asia. And Stop hopping for russia to not do this or that to ukraine. we all know you have a job to do in here There isn't much difference in english between those two phrases.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,704
Likes: 2,981
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Sept 21, 2024 13:37:34 GMT
russia lost quite a lot and not " quite a bit ". Ukraine should be given support till russia gets on its knees. russia is a barbaric country with a barbaric mentality. it does not fit neither in Europe nor in asia. And Stop hopping for russia to not do this or that to ukraine. we all know you have a job to do in here Russia has a vast military industrial complex backed up by the vast natural resources of Russia. I saw some estimates that even if the entire depo has been destroyed it is basically 2 days supplies for the Russian front line. With arms supplies and support from the US to Ukraine coming to an end it should be very obvious to anyone (including yourself) that this war is over and Ukraine needs to try to reach some kind of settlement ASAP. What ever you think of Russia they are "rational actors" and can be negotiated with - they do not want to see Ukraine collapse as a functioning country since this is not in their interest. In my opinion Ukraine needs to enter negotiations with Russia based on the foundation they will agree to remain neutral in the conflict between the US and Russia/China etc.The problem is if they agree to that, they'll just get invaded again. If they don't get in NATO, they'll need massive defensive lines backed up by the combined total output of the US and Europe arms manufacturers. Also its looking (albeit slightly) less likely Trump will get in. Won't Harris carry on where Biden left off? So more war for years to come?
|
|
benaj
Member of DD Central
N/A
Posts: 5,608
Likes: 1,738
|
Post by benaj on Sept 21, 2024 13:40:03 GMT
Exactly, Michael, you have nailed it. Good for defence industry
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 786
Member is Online
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 21, 2024 15:01:54 GMT
Russia has a vast military industrial complex backed up by the vast natural resources of Russia. I saw some estimates that even if the entire depo has been destroyed it is basically 2 days supplies for the Russian front line. With arms supplies and support from the US to Ukraine coming to an end it should be very obvious to anyone (including yourself) that this war is over and Ukraine needs to try to reach some kind of settlement ASAP. What ever you think of Russia they are "rational actors" and can be negotiated with - they do not want to see Ukraine collapse as a functioning country since this is not in their interest. In my opinion Ukraine needs to enter negotiations with Russia based on the foundation they will agree to remain neutral in the conflict between the US and Russia/China etc.The problem is if they agree to that, they'll just get invaded again. If they don't get in NATO, they'll need massive defensive lines backed up by the combined total output of the US and Europe arms manufacturers. Also its looking (albeit slightly) less likely Trump will get in. Won't Harris carry on where Biden left off? So more war for years to come? I guess it depends on why you think Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. If you believe this is just about a land grab by Russia who wants to reform the soviet union or something then Ukraine does have to worry about further invasions if they come to a settlement. However I personally suspect the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is its belief that Ukraine was being armed by NATO in order to pose a military threat to Russia - the Russians have been complaining about the eastward expansion of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Because of this I believe the best position for Ukraine to take is neutrality and reduce its military threat level to Russia.
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Sept 21, 2024 16:47:19 GMT
The problem is if they agree to that, they'll just get invaded again. If they don't get in NATO, they'll need massive defensive lines backed up by the combined total output of the US and Europe arms manufacturers. Also its looking (albeit slightly) less likely Trump will get in. Won't Harris carry on where Biden left off? So more war for years to come? I guess it depends on why you think Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. If you believe this is just about a land grab by Russia who wants to reform the soviet union or something then Ukraine does have to worry about further invasions if they come to a settlement. However I personally suspect the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is its belief that Ukraine was being armed by NATO in order to pose a military threat to Russia - the Russians have been complaining about the eastward expansion of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Because of this I believe the best position for Ukraine to take is neutrality and reduce its military threat level to Russia. If you really believe that Putin's murderous campaign is to reduce the likelihood of NATO extending its borders with russia then it has clearly been an unmitigated disaster. It's been the catalyst for the Russian/NATO border more than doubling by forcing Finland and Sweden to join the defensive organisation, as they fear that they can no longer trust that their despotic neighbour won't try to annex their own land in yet more of his murderous campaigns.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,328
Likes: 786
Member is Online
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Sept 21, 2024 17:58:41 GMT
I guess it depends on why you think Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. If you believe this is just about a land grab by Russia who wants to reform the soviet union or something then Ukraine does have to worry about further invasions if they come to a settlement. However I personally suspect the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is its belief that Ukraine was being armed by NATO in order to pose a military threat to Russia - the Russians have been complaining about the eastward expansion of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Because of this I believe the best position for Ukraine to take is neutrality and reduce its military threat level to Russia. If you really believe that Putin's murderous campaign is to reduce the likelihood of NATO extending its borders with russia then it has clearly been an unmitigated disaster. It's been the catalyst for the Russian/NATO border more than doubling by forcing Finland and Sweden to join the defensive organisation, as they fear that they can no longer trust that their despotic neighbour won't try to annex their own land in yet more of his murderous campaigns. There are other factors in Ukraine beside the NATO/US involvement factor - such as the perception by Russia that Russians within Ukraine are being persecuted. I am pretty confident in saying that if you took US Neo-Con arming of Ukraine and the internal conflict involving Russians within Ukraine (which the Russians seem to believe the US have also been involved in) out of the equation this invasion would not have happened. Infact these two points were the main points of the Istanbul peace deal to end the conflict in 2022 - which the Zelensky government seemed to be very happy about until Boris the Clown showed up. Russians have talked about the Istanbul Agreement as still being the basis of a peace treaty, however it now involves the annexation of large parts of Eastern Ukraine into the Russian Federation. If I was Finnish I would have preferred it if my country had stayed out of NATO and remained neutral. Their neutral peace treaty with Russia benefitted them economically and why the hell would Russia want to invade Finland anyhow*. Infact Finland also faced a similar situation with the Russians after they lost the Winter War in 1940 and by remaining neutral and giving territory to the Russians they avoided the destruction of their country. * - unless they posed a threat to Russia. If you look at a map of the world you will probably notice Russia already has enough territory to worry about.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 18:11:13 GMT
Looks like another carelessly discarded cigarette or falling debris from another successfully intercepted drone has taken out another chunk of ammunition.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,704
Likes: 2,981
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Sept 21, 2024 19:26:15 GMT
I guess it depends on why you think Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. If you believe this is just about a land grab by Russia who wants to reform the soviet union or something then Ukraine does have to worry about further invasions if they come to a settlement. However I personally suspect the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is its belief that Ukraine was being armed by NATO in order to pose a military threat to Russia - the Russians have been complaining about the eastward expansion of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Because of this I believe the best position for Ukraine to take is neutrality and reduce its military threat level to Russia. If you really believe that Putin's murderous campaign is to reduce the likelihood of NATO extending its borders with russia then it has clearly been an unmitigated disaster. It's been the catalyst for the Russian/NATO border more than doubling by forcing Finland and Sweden to join the defensive organisation, as they fear that they can no longer trust that their despotic neighbour won't try to annex their own land in yet more of his murderous campaigns. Yes this has been said many times for many months by many people and is doubtless true.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,704
Likes: 2,981
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Sept 21, 2024 19:44:56 GMT
The problem is if they agree to that, they'll just get invaded again. If they don't get in NATO, they'll need massive defensive lines backed up by the combined total output of the US and Europe arms manufacturers. Also its looking (albeit slightly) less likely Trump will get in. Won't Harris carry on where Biden left off? So more war for years to come? I guess it depends on why you think Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. If you believe this is just about a land grab by Russia who wants to reform the soviet union or something then Ukraine does have to worry about further invasions if they come to a settlement. However I personally suspect the main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is its belief that Ukraine was being armed by NATO in order to pose a military threat to Russia - the Russians have been complaining about the eastward expansion of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union. Because of this I believe the best position for Ukraine to take is neutrality and reduce its military threat level to Russia. I think its a bit of both but both are at the core the same thing: 1/ Prior to 2022 Ukraine was indeed being armed by the US and there was a general prodding of Russia by Ukraine who under Zelensky did everything possible to rapidly move Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence to the extent of telling folk what language they must speak. 2/ No doubt a second factor was Putin's desire to see some kind of Great/Unified Russia in which Ukraine would be a part. Part of that desire was due to the very raw deal the USSR got when it broke up. It was pretty disastrous living there (Russia or Ukraine) in those times. The West is still blamed by many/most in Russia and Ukraine for that. Putin plays to it. Spot the common theme . It will likely never happen, but what is needed is both sides to realise they are not holier than thou and need to understand each other's point of view instead of "you are evil and we are Right.." . Its like they didn't get beyond primary school.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 19:57:45 GMT
If you really believe that Putin's murderous campaign is to reduce the likelihood of NATO extending its borders with russia then it has clearly been an unmitigated disaster. It's been the catalyst for the Russian/NATO border more than doubling by forcing Finland and Sweden to join the defensive organisation, as they fear that they can no longer trust that their despotic neighbour won't try to annex their own land in yet more of his murderous campaigns. There are other factors in Ukraine beside the NATO/US involvement factor - such as the perception by Russia that Russians within Ukraine are being persecuted. I am pretty confident in saying that if you took US Neo-Con arming of Ukraine and the internal conflict involving Russians within Ukraine (which the Russians seem to believe the US have also been involved in) out of the equation this invasion would not have happened. Infact these two points were the main points of the Istanbul peace deal to end the conflict in 2022 - which the Zelensky government seemed to be very happy about until Boris the Clown showed up. Russians have talked about the Istanbul Agreement as still being the basis of a peace treaty, however it now involves the annexation of large parts of Eastern Ukraine into the Russian Federation. If I was Finnish I would have preferred it if my country had stayed out of NATO and remained neutral. Their neutral peace treaty with Russia benefitted them economically and why the hell would Russia want to invade Finland anyhow*. Infact Finland also faced a similar situation with the Russians after they lost the Winter War in 1940 and by remaining neutral and giving territory to the Russians they avoided the destruction of their country. * - unless they posed a threat to Russia. If you look at a map of the world you will probably notice Russia already has enough territory to worry about. probably the same question the Finns were asking themselves before 30/11/39. Just a sneaking suspicion that is why they got a touch nervy when Russia decided to walk into Ukr. You know, the Ukr that was such a huge military threat to Russia that just about everyone thought a Russian puppet would be installed in Kyiv within 3-7 days.
|
|