michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2024 15:44:25 GMT
As long are you are aware that these missiles are not going to do anything to change the course of the conflict in Ukraine and there is a distinct possibility Russia will respond to the UK missiles being fired into Russia directly. Maybe they will. Maybe if the airports and ammo supply and other logistics infrastructure makes the invasion too hard, it'll be abandoned. And, yes, Russia may VERY well choose to escalate by increasing the number of countries being attacked. That's really not going to end well for them, since Ukraine isn't currently covered by NATO Article 5. Right now, there's only two countries on the receiving end of hardware. 1. Ukraine. Russia started it. 2. Russia. In an attempt to stop 1. That means us. You also need to consider what it would mean for us as well as for them. You are not doing that.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2024 15:46:57 GMT
Maybe they will. Maybe if the airports and ammo supply and other logistics infrastructure makes the invasion too hard, it'll be abandoned. And, yes, Russia may VERY well choose to escalate by increasing the number of countries being attacked. That's really not going to end well for them, since Ukraine isn't currently covered by NATO Article 5. Right now, there's only two countries on the receiving end of hardware. 1. Ukraine. Russia started it. 2. Russia. In an attempt to stop 1. That means us. You also need to consider what it would mean for us as well as for them. You are not doing that. Well, it won't be. They've already said first targets would be German and Polish US bases.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 21, 2024 15:56:28 GMT
Meanwhile, the Foreign Ministry said they are ready for "realistic" peace initiative, is that another distraction when they are imposing Forced Enlistment in occupied territory?
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 21, 2024 16:15:48 GMT
I'm sure its just me here, but I actually think the use of an ICBM or two, is quite a clever response from Russia. The escalatory concept is similar to that which it is responding to ("we can also increase our missile range"), it ticks their box of scaring everyone as these missiles can hit half the world but it doesn't actually cause any more significant damage to Ukraine or their war effort and thus hopefully is the final move in this current battle of escalation. At the moment it seems to be questionable whether that is in fact what has happened. It would seem to be a potentially rather (unnecessarily) risky strategy ? I would have expected an ICBM launch to be detected by the US. Whether that is at some point in the boost phase or not till mid-course I don't know. But quite possibly both - as in able to be detected during both. How quickly the trajectory and intended impact/target point can be assessed, and with what certainty, I have no idea. But until that is ascertained, I would have expected it to raise the alarm bells all the way to 11. With consequential responses. I don't think that is a game that even Putin would want to play. Unless of course they know that it would be very quickly confirmed as targeting Ukr. And as well as playing silly b*ggers with nuclear alert trip wires, it would seem like a questionable waste of one or more ICBMs. Albeit they certainly "have enough". Time will no doubt tell.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 21, 2024 16:23:06 GMT
That means us. You also need to consider what it would mean for us as well as for them. You are not doing that. Well, it won't be. They've already said first targets would be German and Polish US bases. As far as the Russians are concerned Germany and Poland have not launched an attack on Russia, the UK has. And if you think everyone in NATO is going to be willing to die because the Russian send a conventional weapon like a hypersonic at a UK target from one of their subs you might be in for a shock. The fact that the Russian Military or Putin have not made a statement about the Storm Shadow attack yesterday is a bit unnerving, it might mean they are deciding on their response.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 21, 2024 16:40:24 GMT
At the moment, we haven't seen any projectiles landed in areas of NATO members yet. But I assume if they are willing to test an "useless" missile landed in any NATO members, the entire world would react very differently.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2024 16:58:26 GMT
Well, it won't be. They've already said first targets would be German and Polish US bases. As far as the Russians are concerned Germany and Poland have not launched an attack on Russia, the UK has. Which bit of "US bases"?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2024 17:08:51 GMT
So a few points:
BB made what I consider to be a reasonable post. I wonder if Russia did indeed inform the US?
To Mr Saver, given the possible act has been enough to stir the EU into saying its an escalation, it is indeed my hope that this is the end of the current round of tit-for-tat. Lets hope it lasts 'till Trump gets in.
Finally, Adrian is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks Germany would be hit before us. Of I forgot, he doesn't read any Russian press so has no idea how much anti-UK fervour is being whipped up in the country.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2024 17:14:21 GMT
Of I forgot, he doesn't read any Russian press so has no idea how much anti-UK fervour is being whipped up in the country. Yes, I'm quite sure today's headlines are all anti-UK following the couple of Stormshadows. I mean, the Russian press is of course nothing but a Kremlin propaganda outlet... Just as they were anti-US the other day, after the attack'ums. They're still just flapping their jaws, and won't actually escalate, because they know damn well that's not going to go well for them. Watch those red lines scoot along.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2024 17:24:14 GMT
Of I forgot, he doesn't read any Russian press so has no idea how much anti-UK fervour is being whipped up in the country. Yes, I'm quite sure today's headlines are all anti-UK following the couple of Stormshadows. I mean, the Russian press is of course nothing but a Kremlin propaganda outlet... Just as they were anti-US the other day, after the attack'ums. They're still just flapping their jaws, and won't actually escalate, because they know damn well that's not going to go well for them. Watch those red lines scoot along. So tell me Adrian, if they hit a few targets in the UK, kill a few people in a military base and destroy some buildings, what would the UK do? Or what should it do ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2024 17:25:48 GMT
Yes, I'm quite sure today's headlines are all anti-UK following the couple of Stormshadows. I mean, the Russian press is of course nothing but a Kremlin propaganda outlet... Just as they were anti-US the other day, after the attack'ums. They're still just flapping their jaws, and won't actually escalate, because they know damn well that's not going to go well for them. Watch those red lines scoot along. So tell me Adrian, if they hit a few targets in the UK, kill a few people in a military base and destroy some buildings, what would the UK do? Or what should it do ? What'll happen if they nuke NYC? It's about as likely.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 21, 2024 17:27:56 GMT
Of I forgot, he doesn't read any Russian press so has no idea how much anti-UK fervour is being whipped up in the country. Yes, I'm quite sure today's headlines are all anti-UK following the couple of Stormshadows. I mean, the Russian press is of course nothing but a Kremlin propaganda outlet... Just as they were anti-US the other day, after the attack'ums. They're still just flapping their jaws, and won't actually escalate, because they know damn well that's not going to go well for them. Watch those red lines scoot along. I have read Russian Analysis (translated into English) on this and it seems the US attack was targeted at a very well defended military depot while the storm shadow targeted a fairly grand military residential building used for training and strategy in the Kursk Region (I suspect it was built by the soviets from some top military brass to stay at and have meetings, looks more like a palace than a barracks). The Russian military released a statement pretty soon after the US attack, they have still not said anything about the UK Storm shadow attack. I would speculate that it is possibly some of the storm shadow missiles got through and hit the building*, the Russian military are deciding on a response. * - I hope to god no high ranking Russian Military personal were inside at the time.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 21, 2024 17:47:26 GMT
So tell me Adrian, if they hit a few targets in the UK, kill a few people in a military base and destroy some buildings, what would the UK do? Or what should it do ? What'll happen if they nuke NYC? It's about as likely. You're telling me their opening gambit would be to obliterate a city of millions of people? It doesn't work like that. Its tit-for-tat that escalates on each side. You wouldn't start with a nuclear weapon for goodness sake. So I'll ask you again what would be our response or should our response be if we were hit with a few conventional missiles on military targets in the UK ? Why can't you answer this simple, hypothetical question ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 21, 2024 18:02:22 GMT
You wouldn't start with a nuclear weapon for goodness sake. True... but I wouldn't have started by invading next-door, then blaming anybody and everybody else. So everything past there is into "Putin's definitely not making the same choices as me" territory.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 21, 2024 18:06:54 GMT
You wouldn't start with a nuclear weapon for goodness sake. True... but I wouldn't have started by invading next-door, then blaming anybody and everybody else. So everything past there is into "Putin's definitely not making the same choices as me" territory. UK was involved in the illegal invasion of Libya and Iraq. So what if Russia gave Iraq an ICBM and helped them fire it at London blowing up a historical military building?
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