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Post by captainconfident on Aug 19, 2023 15:53:03 GMT
And therein lies the problem with the party list part of proportional representation. No top echelon of a political party is going to want independent original people anywhere on there preferred lists, sheep and pigs every time thanks ,the dumber and compliant the better. You misunderstand how it works. The Green candidate keitha met - didn't stand a chance of being elected. What sort of person puts themselves forward for a lost deposit? Not qualified and capable people. There are only 2 candidates in each FPTP constituency, the two in the running to win. Nobody bothers about the rest. In a PR list system, you will see 5-10-20 people on a party list. The ones at the top, the party leaders, MPs, party placemen. Who are the bottom of the list? These are people these are people the party doesn't expect to get into the body being elected once votes are counted. But if the party gets unexpectedly more votes, some may scrape in from lower on the ladder. Someone low on the list may be a young person starting out, or someone out of favour with the party. HOWEVER if a person low on the list campaigns hard/ has a magnetic personality /is a popular maveric and gathers more votes than people higher up the list, the outsider gets in and displaces one of the chosen ones with fewer votes. You the voter have the choice of voting for anyone on the party list, not just the party-people at the top. Maybe you know somebody lower down? Maybe you read their peosonal manifesto and was impressed. Imagine if it is the party you chose to vote for, the Conservative PArty maybe. Instead of 1 candidate to vote for, you have 20. I know this from experience here in Belgium, where the local socialists got a young ultra green guy Valentijn came in second place from the bottom of the list. That's really shaken them up. And the Greens too, as this bright guy has stolen their thunder.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 19, 2023 16:08:28 GMT
I'll put it another way, as I made it sound complicated and it isn't.
You see a list of candidates for your area of the country.
A) You are not interested in politics. The only person you like is Mr. Boris Johnson. You know he is Conservative. There, top of the list is his name. You put your cross next to that.
B) You are very interested in politics, you also support the Conservatives. You read the personal manifestos of all 20 on the list for that party. You know one of them personally but he's a dick. But one of the candidates, you really liked their ideas. That's the one you choose.
Maybe other people noticed this person outclassed the rest too and they get more votes than the people the party placed high on the list.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 19, 2023 16:09:32 GMT
You the voter have the choice of voting for anyone on the party list, not just the party-people at the top. Not the way party lists have been implemented here, either for European seats in the past or for the regional Additional Member in the Welsh Assembly. Both are purely party-name tickbox.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 19, 2023 17:09:36 GMT
You the voter have the choice of voting for anyone on the party list, not just the party-people at the top. Not the way party lists have been implemented here, either for European seats in the past or for the regional Additional Member in the Welsh Assembly. Both are purely party-name tickbox. Oh ? What? You're kidding? That's missing the best bit! What you're missing is that if you're Tory number 15 or Green no.6, it's still worth you campaigning, get your ideas out, get your personal vote out, because you want to be the rising star in your party and you might just climb that list from where you were placed. That's why you see so many faces on posters in European country elections, rather than just name+party for the party's one candidate. In the last election, CD&V (Christian Democrat) candidate no. 21 was in my choir, and he was never so friendly to me as in the 2 weeks before the last election. He's now their local party leader, but everyone is saying their vote is going to collapse next year. tee hee.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 19, 2023 19:01:37 GMT
We had a weird voting system last time here in Wales.
Each region has 4 seats 1 directly elected and three based on D'hondt for party lists
the next election will be six seats per area ( they will pair parliamentary constituencies), this will use purely D'hondt but gender zipped.
Gender zipping:-
example Labour get most votes so gets a seat the first person on their list is a man, Plaid get the next seat the first candidate on their list is a Man, but because of gender zipping they go down to the first woman, the Conservatives now get a seat and their first candidate is a woman, but because of gender zipping you have to skip down to a man, I'm not sure what would happen if a party doesn't have a candidate of the appropriate gender on their list, or say gets 1,3,5 and only has 2 of the appropriate gender
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 19, 2023 19:04:56 GMT
Not the way party lists have been implemented here, either for European seats in the past or for the regional Additional Member in the Welsh Assembly. Both are purely party-name tickbox. Oh ? What? You're kidding? That's missing the best bit! What you're missing is that if you're Tory number 15 or Green no.6, it's still worth you campaigning, get your ideas out, get your personal vote out, because you want to be the rising star in your party and you might just climb that list from where you were placed. That's why you see so many faces on posters in European country elections, rather than just name+party for the party's one candidate. In the last election, CD&V (Christian Democrat) candidate no. 21 was in my choir, and he was never so friendly to me as in the 2 weeks before the last election. He's now their local party leader, but everyone is saying their vote is going to collapse next year. tee hee. did we not have the system suggested by the captain for European elections.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Aug 20, 2023 8:45:04 GMT
Oh ? What? You're kidding? That's missing the best bit! What you're missing is that if you're Tory number 15 or Green no.6, it's still worth you campaigning, get your ideas out, get your personal vote out, because you want to be the rising star in your party and you might just climb that list from where you were placed. That's why you see so many faces on posters in European country elections, rather than just name+party for the party's one candidate. In the last election, CD&V (Christian Democrat) candidate no. 21 was in my choir, and he was never so friendly to me as in the 2 weeks before the last election. He's now their local party leader, but everyone is saying their vote is going to collapse next year. tee hee. did we not have the system suggested by the captain for European elections. Not quite. We got one vote, for the party. If the party got one seat, the first person on the list got it. Two seats, first two - etc.  captainconfident is suggesting you could vote explicitly for the fourth individual on a party's list.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 20, 2023 9:27:35 GMT
Yes that's it exactly. On the list above you could vote for UKIP candidate no. 10, and if UKIP were getting 4 seats and she had more votes than UKIP no.4 candidate, she's in.
It gives each candidate a reason not to slack about assuming that they get in, but to get out and out-campaign people in their own parties. I think this is the reason that the incumbent politicians do not choose this system for the electorate.
I should just add that in continental PR, voters can also ignore the candidates and tick that box for the party they support. That gives the party control of that vote and in practice they apportion them to the candidates high on the list that the party wants in - to edge out any upstarts like UKIP no.10.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Aug 27, 2023 15:13:17 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 28, 2023 18:12:25 GMT
I thought I was reading the thread "What amused you in the News today" and thought, hmm. But I see my mistake. You've actually steered this thread back on course. Nice move!
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Aug 29, 2023 17:36:52 GMT
Talk about stretching a point to infer trouble associated with the barge but.
The Express reports ,diver missing near Bibby Stockholme barge ( or words to that effect), the poor bugger was 2 miles south of Portland Bill near enough 4 miles from the barge in sucba diving terms another planet . Sadly recovered dead from water same day. Never had much time for the Express same as Mail and Sun quality wise.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 30, 2023 11:14:46 GMT
A lot of Express articles have headlines that don't match the article below. The headline is made to catch your eye ("Rage as X does Y and/to Z", Fury as etc etc) with some damp squib below. Probably the case here where the 'barge' is the eye catcher and the article a waste of time. I think they pay students to crank this ephemera out in their spare time rather than actually employing journalists.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 1, 2023 6:40:36 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 1, 2023 14:54:05 GMT
Was is COL I can't remember. Anway have to say whether you're pro, against or somewhere inbetween on immigration, this is an absolute shambles. Autumn term for students is just a month away and didn't the beeb run a story (yesterday?) about students up and down the country finding it hard to obtain accommodation? Government is doing everything it can to relinquish power. Power they never really had a mandate for anyway.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 1, 2023 16:00:04 GMT
"De Moor was complaining that the influx of asylum-seekers over the past two years in the nation of 11.5 million had filled the shelter centers to near capacity of 33,500. Last year, Belgium had nearly 37,000 applications for protection, the federal agency Fedasil said.
...
Still, said de Moor, “our country has already done more than its share for a long time,” and called on some other EU nations to increase their effort instead."BE : 37,000 applications for 11.5m population = 1 per 310 pop'n. UK : 74,750 applications for 67.6m population = 1 per 905 pop'n.
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