registerme
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Post by registerme on Aug 14, 2023 7:25:12 GMT
The Lutfur Rahman example was appalling. But it's also the most egregious example from a tiny data set, and he was caught and punished. I'm not sure an outlier like that warrants the introduction of nation wide changes that have and do disenfranchise people.
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eeyore
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Post by eeyore on Aug 14, 2023 8:25:50 GMT
Well as I very clearly said: I looked at the first chunk, with a title all about Peterborough, spent quite a bit of time digging into that, beyond the "he alleged/she alleged" in that piece, came to the conclusion that it had been proven to be a load of rollox, and stopped there. EDIT: of course there is some level of fraud. Elections are held nationwide, and frequently involving millions of people The question is whether it is significant, and given your conviction that it is a new thing induced by immigration, is there any evidence of it being particularly prevalent in a specific demographic. There is. Sir Eric Pickles conducted an independent review of electoral fraud in 2016 and concluded precisely that. See paras 194, 198 & 199. ......A review by an ex-cabinet minister at the invitation of the prime minister and published by the government isn't something I'd call " independent".
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 14, 2023 9:48:06 GMT
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 14, 2023 10:05:17 GMT
The Lutfur Rahman example was appalling. But it's also the most egregious example from a tiny data set, and he was caught and punished. I'm not sure an outlier like that warrants the introduction of nation wide changes that have and do disenfranchise people. Was it an outlier? There have been several examples of serious electoral malpractice reported and prosecuted over the past 25 years. I've checked all the reports I can find and I'm afraid the majority stem from our immigrant population, specifically those hailing directly or indirectly from the sub-continent. The whole act needed cleaning up, as Sir Eric's review made clear.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 14, 2023 12:07:03 GMT
The Lutfur Rahman example was appalling. But it's also the most egregious example from a tiny data set, and he was caught and punished. I'm not sure an outlier like that warrants the introduction of nation wide changes that have and do disenfranchise people. I would agree with that but would add that I think when you say "disenfranchise people" you are likely referring to the tiny minority without ID. I would say that phrase extends to many people including myself. Election day for me is a time to reflect not only about the political choices but also the country as a whole. I used to feel proud that I could go to my polling station carrying nothing but myself and mark the paper. Something nice about the fact that virtually nobody would seriously try and steal my vote or anyone elses and felt part of being a civilised democracy. Shame that has all gone
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 14, 2023 12:39:32 GMT
At the last election I went to vote about 11 AM.
the guy in front of me was very distinctive over 6 feet with a green and red halved haircut.
He told the officer who he was and the response was "you gave me a different name when you were in earlier" "ah yes that was me, I'm now doing my dad's vote, I know how he would vote and he's busy, so I'm doing it" a discussion ensued and in the end he left the officer put red marks against 3 entries in the register, I'd guess the whole family.
had he looked average I think he would have got away with it.
I've been talking to people over the weekend and most agree with needing proof of ID, I do think any photo ID should be acceptable, So Passport, Driving licence, older persons travel card, student ID, NHS staff ID card etc. there were 2 elderly people with no photo ID I'm going to help them to get the council issued one.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 12:40:09 GMT
The Lutfur Rahman example was appalling. But it's also the most egregious example from a tiny data set, and he was caught and punished. I'm not sure an outlier like that warrants the introduction of nation wide changes that have and do disenfranchise people. I would agree with that but would add that I think when you say "disenfranchise people" you are likely referring to the tiny minority without ID. I would say that phrase extends to many people including myself. Election day for me is a time to reflect not only about the political choices but also the country as a whole. I used to feel proud that I could go to my polling station carrying nothing but myself and mark the paper. Something nice about the fact that virtually nobody would seriously try and steal my vote or anyone elses and felt part of being a civilised democracy. Shame that has all gone I agree with you in principle because it would be nice if the world was this way. I thought the ID introduction was a stinker as it bent over backwards to find forms of ID for the elderly, while not allowing student ID. Blatant. I would think that 'personation' fraud is very rare, except that I once turned up to vote in a tight Labour-Liberal byelection in the potteries in the mid-80s, and I was told "You have already voted", even though I had brought my polling card. I believe what happened was that I was a student at the time, and I had been to hear a Conservative MP speak to a small group on campus. I am certain to this day that student Labour Party hacks watched who showed up for that event and turned up early and did "oops forgot my polling card" votes for some of the attendees. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Newcastle-under-Lyme_by-election - a really tight contest that Labour were afraid of losing. Either way, it's possible that lots of people experienced "you've already voted" problems like this and like me didn't report it. I mean, report it to whom? Who would have been interested when you can't produce evidence that it wasn't you trying to vote twice, rather than an earlier imposter?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 15, 2023 14:20:16 GMT
I would agree with that but would add that I think when you say "disenfranchise people" you are likely referring to the tiny minority without ID. I would say that phrase extends to many people including myself. Election day for me is a time to reflect not only about the political choices but also the country as a whole. I used to feel proud that I could go to my polling station carrying nothing but myself and mark the paper. Something nice about the fact that virtually nobody would seriously try and steal my vote or anyone elses and felt part of being a civilised democracy. Shame that has all gone I agree with you in principle because it would be nice if the world was this way. I thought the ID introduction was a stinker as it bent over backwards to find forms of ID for the elderly, while not allowing student ID. Blatant. Agreed - good point. Interesting and another good point about marginals. Highlights another problem with our voting system that some votes count more than others and for those in non-marginals the only way to have a say is to join the dominant party. By the way, what happened when someone else voted for you? Did they still let you vote? Presumably you could have complained to the electoral commission if you could have been bothered.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 15:15:27 GMT
michaelc I wasn't allowed to vote, and wasn't offered any alternatives. The poll worker was very much "you are trying to vote twice" about it and I was at the head of a queue and I wandered off embarrassed after protesting innocence - so unexpected, I was at a loss as to what had gone wrong. It could have been a mistake, as this was crossing off names with a biro admin they were doing (maybe still the same now). But deep down I know it wasn't. The student Labour activists of the time were rabidly anti-Thatcher and I do think they would have stooped to any measure at that time. Until I remembered this after your post, I was in the "no ID necessary" camp but really as you suggested, if all legitimate photo ID is accepted than it seems a pretty undemanding requirement. I am so hoping that Labour doesn't win the next GE outright so it is forced to make concessions on the voting system.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 15, 2023 15:52:49 GMT
[Interesting and another good point about marginals. Highlights another problem with our voting system that some votes count more than others and for those in non-marginals the only way to have a say is to join the dominant party. It seems there are 2 ways in which some votes count more than others 1) people in marginal constituencies have more of a say 2) Those in smaller constituencies also have more of a say. Labour in Wales are saying it is antidemocratic to reduce the number of Welsh MPs As I understand it the electoral commission were tasked with amongst other things evening out the electorate for each constituency. I believe that currently the average electorate in England is 73,000 in England and 57,700 in Wales With Wales having 40 seats, then that's an electorate of 2.3 million but 2.3 million is 30 Seats in England so Wales is overrepresented. In the good old days I used to stay up and watch the results programs on TV, what always amazed me was that the total votes cast in some constituencies would be less than the majority in others. Yes I also know the tories have been accused of rigging the result by say dividing up a labour seat and giving part to another labour seat , but the rest to 2 tory held suburban seats, ie abolishing Labour seats and not tory I honestly believe that whichever party was in power would have done similar
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 15, 2023 16:01:29 GMT
[Interesting and another good point about marginals. Highlights another problem with our voting system that some votes count more than others and for those in non-marginals the only way to have a say is to join the dominant party. Yes I also know the tories have been accused of rigging the result by say dividing up a labour seat and giving part to another labour seat , but the rest to 2 tory held suburban seats, ie abolishing Labour seats and not tory I honestly believe that whichever party was in power would have done similar I don't think that rigging - or gerrymandering - actually happens in the UK. The Boundary Commission is an independent body. Yes the government - more strictly speaking, parliament I think - has to approve its findings and enact its outcomes, but I'm pretty sure they cannot cherry pick: they can simply choose to put the whole lot forward, or none of it. This would seem to validate that: Boundary commission - about usI don't however know what the situation is for wards etc. in local elections.
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 15, 2023 16:12:47 GMT
I've been talking to people over the weekend and most agree with needing proof of ID, I do think any photo ID should be acceptable, So Passport, Driving licence, older persons travel card, student ID, NHS staff ID card etc. there were 2 elderly people with no photo ID I'm going to help them to get the council issued one. we should simply go the whole hog and put a national ID "card" system in place. It's ridiculous we don't have one, and over the decades its predominantly been politicians of the same persuasion that get incandescent about immigration, use of public services by those who shouldn't be entitled, and now the need for voter id, who have got equally incandescent against national ID cards because of 'infringement of individual liberty'. Ridiculous.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 16:17:30 GMT
keitha , that was well worth pointing out. But there is another elephant in the room, that practically no government since the war or probably before the war has been elected with the support of 50% of those who voted. Since 1918 there have been 28 General Elections in the United Kingdom, with the Conservative party winning the highest share of the vote in 19 elections, and the Labour party in nine. The Conservatives recorded their highest share of the vote in 1931 at 60.8 percent, the Labour Party in 1951 at 48.8 percent, and the then Liberal Party in 1923 at 29.6 percent.www.statista.com/statistics/717004/general-elections-vote-share-by-party-uk/In 1997, Labour won a 132 seat majority on 43% of the votes. So talk about some votes being worth more than others! Could happen again this time round. What about the 57% who didn't want that government? Their MPs would have been practically powerless in such a parliament.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 15, 2023 18:23:18 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 18:43:11 GMT
I thought that bit in Blackadder was supposed to be a joke!
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