keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 15, 2023 18:54:03 GMT
I thought that bit in Blackadder was supposed to be a joke! Dunny on the Wold, LOL yes Minister begins to look more like a documentary researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8060/CBP-8060.pdfcurrently about 70% turnout so even if a party gets 50% of the votes cast, which in most cases would give it a massive majority, that's only 35% of the electorate.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 15, 2023 19:04:43 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic)
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 15, 2023 19:23:03 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I'd go for PR if it was a regional system ie 6-10 current constituencies. more than about 10 if you use D'Hondt or similar give the obnoxious parties a chance of seats. Obnoxious I mean BNP, England first, rather than Greens or Plaid.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 19:28:33 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) For the other two parties it's turkeys not wanting to vote for Christmas. Britain is the only European country where the Green Party is not, well hardly, represented in its lower house of Parliament. In a fair system they would take a big chunk out of Labour's vote. That's one good reason why they won't let go.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 15, 2023 20:06:38 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 15, 2023 20:09:15 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I'd go for PR if it was a regional system ie 6-10 current constituencies. more than about 10 if you use D'Hondt or similar give the obnoxious parties a chance of seats. Obnoxious I mean BNP, England first, rather than Greens or Plaid. I used to think the same way. Now I say give them their proportional time in parliament and likely watch them lose the arguments time after time. It is not for you or I to decide who is objectively obnoxious even though I share your opinion on the examples given.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 15, 2023 20:31:18 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
I think you could leave fptp to decide the national government, if the national government devolved most of its power to powerful regional governments, as in Germany. Compared to all similar sized European countries, far too much power and decision making takes place in Westminster. No wonder the Home Office has never functioned properly in decades, it's overwhelmed. If those powers were passed to regional assemblies that were properly financed, they would be more effective, being closer to the people they serve. The competence of the national parliament should be countrywide issues like defence and foreign policy, budgetary matters. That would take some of the heat out of the national parliament, and instead of whatever party hack gets elected in a constituency, it would see a better flow of talented and effective politicians between the two layers of government.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 21:42:56 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
Tell to the Scots and the Welsh.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 21:55:49 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
Italy has been a basket case even when they used a past the post system (and it is currently nearly 40% first past the post, so not really proper PR). No other European country uses a fully first past the post system. It is a broken model and long overdue for change, and I would argue has been the driver of a terrible period of government since 2015 that has caused irreparable harm to UK politics and to the UK as a country.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 21:59:06 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) Why would the two main parties who always get disproportionate power from the current system ever want to change it? The system is a forever self fulfilling prophecy.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 15, 2023 22:23:03 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) Why would the two main parties who always get disproportionate power from the current system ever want to change it? The system is a forever self fulfilling prophecy. That is certainly the theory that often gets wheeled out but haven't the Tories had approximately twice as many years in power as Labour and when not in power (most of the time for Labour) wouldn't they be better off under PR ?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 15, 2023 22:38:00 GMT
PR is the way to go but its just a shame the only big party to support that are the liberals (sic) I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
IMHO better than the DUP ( Unlikely ) but i suppose possible, I have always felt that FPTP gave more stable Governments as they didn't have to compromise.I see here in Wales that a Party that is virtually unchallenged, and knows that it will form the next Government and the one after makes decisions in its own interests and not that of the population. Perhaps Green holding some power would be good as it would force the 2 big parties to address green issues in a proper manner.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 22:59:40 GMT
Why would the two main parties who always get disproportionate power from the current system ever want to change it? The system is a forever self fulfilling prophecy. That is certainly the theory that often gets wheeled out but haven't the Tories had approximately twice as many years in power as Labour and when not in power (most of the time for Labour) wouldn't they be better off under PR ? Sure, FPTP is usually better for right of centre parties as there is less splitting of the vote, so the Tories are even more pro-FPTP than Labour. But Labour had a huge chance to reform in 1997, set up a Royal Commission (Jenkins Commission), came up with an excellent hybrid system (https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/what-was-av-the-electoral-system-recommended-by-the-jenkins-report/) with 500 constituency MPs and 150 top up MPs to make it proportional, then decided it could hold on to power given how huge its majority was and just implemented a similar system for Scotland. Winning changes the winning party's (collective) mind.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 23:00:59 GMT
I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
IMHO better than the DUP ( Unlikely ) but i suppose possible, I have always felt that FPTP gave more stable Governments as they didn't have to compromise.I see here in Wales that a Party that is virtually unchallenged, and knows that it will form the next Government and the one after makes decisions in its own interests and not that of the population. Perhaps Green holding some power would be good as it would force the 2 big parties to address green issues in a proper manner. I don't see that as an advantage most of the time, especially as only a minority of the country voted for whatever it is they aren't compromising on.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 15, 2023 23:08:13 GMT
I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
IMHO better than the DUP ( Unlikely ) but i suppose possible, I have always felt that FPTP gave more stable Governments as they didn't have to compromise. I see here in Wales that a Party that is virtually unchallenged, and knows that it will form the next Government and the one after makes decisions in its own interests and not that of the population. Perhaps Green holding some power would be good as it would force the 2 big parties to address green issues in a proper manner. That's using a PR-ish system in Wales that reels in Labour (with less that 40% of the vote) to have only about half the seats - on the FPTP part of the election they get 67% of the seats! Imagine if the UK-wide system was in place in Wales (or Scotland for that matter).
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