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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 16, 2023 6:10:14 GMT
I think PR ony works in countries where it has been established for a long time and politicians have come to terms with working together. Even then you have the Italian basket case where they've had 8 PM's in the last 12 years.
I don't see any way it would work in the UK, as politicians are not use to working together and all they would do is argue. SNP or Lib Dems holding the balance of power? No thanks.
IMHO better than the DUP ( Unlikely ) but i suppose possible, I have always felt that FPTP gave more stable Governments as they didn't have to compromise.I see here in Wales that a Party that is virtually unchallenged, and knows that it will form the next Government and the one after makes decisions in its own interests and not that of the population. Perhaps Green holding some power would be good as it would force the 2 big parties to address green issues in a proper manner. but 'more stable governments' every five years is not the same as a 'more stable long term governance'. A country's political make up doesn't generally change dramatically over the space of 5 years, but with FPTP that of its government can. And anyway, "stable government" that is guaranteed to not be representative of the broad electorate is not necessarily a good thing in a democracy. And unstable govt can still be delivered by large majority parties: I'm not sure the Cameron-May-Johnson-Truss-Sunak era can be described as 'stable govt'.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 16, 2023 9:37:03 GMT
Some countries are split in half by ideological division and some are not. Israel is an example of the former, NL an example of the latter. You are unfortunate if you live in a split country as politics is rancorous and governments are fragile. Leaving such countries aside, what you have are typically green liberal as in 'represents business' Christian conservative mainstream Socialist far left nationalist right party. Two or three of these parties will be able to form a block that commands a majority, and in PR that represents a majority of those who voted, so already an improvement. I would argue that they produce better policy because they have to thrash out a way forward with politicians that they are working with but who are from other parties. So there has to be debate and compromise. What you get from a FPTP winner is total power for 5 years to force through the whim of each single minister. Who does not even have to listen or respect alternative viewpoint over policy shaping. Hence you get massive costly blunders like www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/chris-graylings-five-biggest-failings
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 16, 2023 10:30:56 GMT
Some countries are split in half by ideological division and some are not. Israel is an example of the former, NL an example of the latter. You are unfortunate if you live in a split country as politics is rancorous and governments are fragile. Leaving such countries aside, what you have are typically green liberal as in 'represents business' Christian conservative mainstream Socialist far left nationalist right party. Two or three of these parties will be able to form a block that commands a majority, and in PR that represents a majority of those who voted, so already an improvement. I would argue that they produce better policy because they have to thrash out a way forward with politicians that they are working with but who are from other parties. So there has to be debate and compromise. What you get from a FPTP winner is total power for 5 years to force through the whim of each single minister. Who does not even have to listen or respect alternative viewpoint over policy shaping. Hence you get massive costly blunders like www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/chris-graylings-five-biggest-failingsSo the UK isnt a split country as its governments are generally stable ... as opposed to Belgium which even out does Italy for revolving administrations it would appear It is noticeable that 'extremist' parties (ie nationalist or far something) are becoming increasing prominent in unsplit countries. Also likelihood of 'caretakers' with restricted legislative power higher. www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/01/25/many-countries-in-europe-get-a-new-government-at-least-every-two-years/
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 16, 2023 10:32:44 GMT
I think our system needs to be improved, then I look at the US and think could we be there is 30-40 years, with a total monopoly of the 2 main parties, and them spending time undoing what the other did.
Those that know me well, will know I tend to be Conservative. A little prone to tactical voting in elections, so last time in the local elections I felt the sitting independents were doing little for us, one seriously told me that "street lights have hidden cameras in them so the council can monitor people" another in response to a question on council tax said "I don't have time to answer questions from constituents" What were either doing as representatives of us the public. When questioned by a friend on Councillors allowances (PAY) told her "it isn't much it only works out at £15 an hour" I looked at the paper and felt that to get rid of the bad ones I had little choice but to vote Labour. Labour took control of the Council from the independents
After the election when locally ( IIRC EBBW VALE) elected an independent, over the weekend he thought about his position and on the Monday became a Labour Councillor
for an example of how bad they are google silent valley waste.
But no way could I vote for a party ( whatever my natural leanings ) That bans abortion, that isn't in favour of gun control, that believes the way to prevent mass shootings in school is to allow teachers to have guns ( I personally dread to think how the case where the teacher was shot by a six(?) year old would play out). Where people think it's OK to go shopping with a rifle over the shoulder, and a holstered hand gun. Where getting seriously injured in a car crash runs a serious risk of bankruptcy ( one of my friends in the US has a serious lung condition , he was put in an induced coma in March time, he's now had a lung transplant, but is still in hospital, the last message from his wife was saying the Hospital stay is over $100,000 a week, and the lung transplant will cost $500,000, she said even with insurance etc the cost is so high he will have to go bankrupt).
Whereas here the parties can agree on some things, over there the divide is such that it seems if party A says bananas are yellow then B will say they are orange just to be different.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 16, 2023 11:08:55 GMT
Some countries are split in half by ideological division and some are not. Israel is an example of the former, NL an example of the latter. You are unfortunate if you live in a split country as politics is rancorous and governments are fragile. Leaving such countries aside, what you have are typically green liberal as in 'represents business' Christian conservative mainstream Socialist far left nationalist right party. Two or three of these parties will be able to form a block that commands a majority, and in PR that represents a majority of those who voted, so already an improvement. I would argue that they produce better policy because they have to thrash out a way forward with politicians that they are working with but who are from other parties. So there has to be debate and compromise. What you get from a FPTP winner is total power for 5 years to force through the whim of each single minister. Who does not even have to listen or respect alternative viewpoint over policy shaping. Hence you get massive costly blunders like www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/chris-graylings-five-biggest-failingsSo the UK isnt a split country as its governments are generally stable ... as opposed to Belgium which even out does Italy for revolving administrations it would appear It is noticeable that 'extremist' parties (ie nationalist or far something) are becoming increasing prominent in unsplit countries. Also likelihood of 'caretakers' with restricted legislative power higher. www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/01/25/many-countries-in-europe-get-a-new-government-at-least-every-two-years/I can speak with authority on Belgium as I live here and have dual nationality. The misunderstanding people have is that they project the top down system of the UK onto Belgium and say, "unstable coalitions!". But that is to misunderstand the role of the government they are criticising, whose responsibilities are defence and foreign affairs and resolving any conflicts between Flanders and Wallonia, certain budgetary functions etc Flanders and Wallonia have separate governments which do the actual running of the country. Below them the Provincial administration, and below that local government. So power is dispersed. The make-up of government at these different levels have bespoke coalitions. The fact of different coalitions running the Belgian government is hardly noticed by anyone as the the 'rather difficult to hold together' country of Belgium seems to proceed satisfactorily in the right general direction, for decades.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Aug 16, 2023 18:18:15 GMT
Unless I have the wrong end of the stick (which is entirely possible!), supporters of PR mean Preferential voting?
Well, there is an even fairer (arguably) and more "accurate" system, and it's called Proportional voting. Google it.
Under the moste excellente educatione I received in Oz in my formative years, the Proportional System was thoroughly explained to us and even then (age 13 or so) it made an impact and total sense to me.
I also understand (and the knowledgeable on here will again correct me if I'm wrong) that designing a fair, reasonable, representative and accurate Voting System is nigh impossible, it's a challenge that mathematicians have been trying to come up with a solution since the dawn of democracy.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Aug 16, 2023 18:30:38 GMT
Unless I have the wrong end of the stick (which is entirely possible!), supporters of PR mean Preferential voting? Well, there is an even fairer (arguably) and more "accurate" system, and it's called Proportional voting. Google it. Under the moste excellente educatione I received in Oz in my formative years, the Proportional System was thoroughly explained to us and even then (age 13 or so) it made an impact and total sense to me. I also understand (and the knowledgeable on here will again correct me if I'm wrong) that designing a fair, reasonable, representative and accurate Voting System is nigh impossible, it's a challenge that mathematicians have been trying to come up with a solution since the dawn of democracy. PR is normally understood to mean Proportional Representation.
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Post by crabbyoldgit on Aug 16, 2023 19:36:52 GMT
Sadly the American system should have an effective counter weight to the exstreams of the two party system that dominate there. It's called the supreme court and should stand up for the rights of the individual under the Constitution and bill of rights, but political stuffing of members into the court who can be controlled and have not acted in an independent manner as in the past has diminished the institution to a shadow of it's former past. The supreme court should be the final bastion of the democratic system and the rights of the individual over the excesses of politicians and parties, I think it's starting to fail.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Aug 16, 2023 20:00:55 GMT
Unless I have the wrong end of the stick (which is entirely possible!), supporters of PR mean Preferential voting? Well, there is an even fairer (arguably) and more "accurate" system, and it's called Proportional voting. Google it. Under the moste excellente educatione I received in Oz in my formative years, the Proportional System was thoroughly explained to us and even then (age 13 or so) it made an impact and total sense to me. I also understand (and the knowledgeable on here will again correct me if I'm wrong) that designing a fair, reasonable, representative and accurate Voting System is nigh impossible, it's a challenge that mathematicians have been trying to come up with a solution since the dawn of democracy. I mean proportional Although the system Jenkins designed for the UK was not totally proportional - as you say that isn't really possible. Jenkins recommended 500 constituency seats elected by a preferential vote rather than FPTP (so the winning candidate is elected by at least 50% of voters) - and keeps the idea of "my local MP" which people value. Then 150 seats that are voted for by party, and are allocated on top of the 500 to make it more proportional overall. It may not be totally proportional but it is a hybrid system and works OK in Scotland, Wales and London. The main alternatives are a pure party list (which I don't much like), or some sort of single transferrable vote (like in Ireland) which is more proportional, but is complicated and involves multimember constituencies and so there is not a single local MP.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 17, 2023 8:25:31 GMT
there is already talk that Labour in Wales are fiddling the candidates for the next election.
The rules will be PR with Party lists, but a mandated equal number of male and female members
So lets say the top person on labour list is Male he is elected the the next candidate is Plaid their top candidate is male but under the rules you have to go down the list to find a female, the Labour again another man, then Conservatives scan down and find a female, then plaid again ah now the top candidate gets in .
it feels too complicated
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 17, 2023 10:09:00 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 17, 2023 10:29:10 GMT
The news item says 2/3 of members of the Senedd voted for it. So that is democracy innit.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Aug 17, 2023 10:36:11 GMT
This gets raised in the pub and elsewhere and in every conversation i've heard the vast majority of the public ie those that will pay for it are opposed to more noses in the trough. 36 more members 50% increase in central admin etc to support it. then each of the 36 will have 2-3 assistants being paid for on expenses
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Post by bernythedolt on Aug 17, 2023 10:54:08 GMT
The news item says 2/3 of members of the Senedd voted for it. So that is democracy innit. Sheer madness when it's projected to cost £100m and you've already overspent your budget by £900m. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-66438471Assuming, for simplicity, 65m UK population, Westminster's 650 MPs administer the country at 1 MP per 100,000 people. By that measure, the 3 million population of Wales requires 30 Senedd members. We have 60, but apparently that still isn't enough and we really need 96...
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 17, 2023 14:46:22 GMT
The news item says 2/3 of members of the Senedd voted for it. So that is democracy innit. Sheer madness when it's projected to cost £100m and you've already overspent your budget by £900m. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-66438471Assuming, for simplicity, 65m UK population, Westminster's 650 MPs administer the country at 1 MP per 100,000 people. By that measure, the 3 million population of Wales requires 30 Senedd members. We have 60, but apparently that still isn't enough and we really need 96... That is just the problem of all public spending in the UK. It's decided in Westminster what should be doled out to the regions and devolved governments by some bean counters making guesses. Because taxes are not high enough to properly fund anything except apparently pensions, nothing is funded adequately. As the linked article say WRT the budget deficit in Wales, Recent pay rises announced for teachers, and doctors in England did not trigger extra funds for Mark Drakeford's administration, meaning the money for pay deals in Wales also have to be found from elsewhere in Welsh government's funds.
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