michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 29, 2023 15:23:50 GMT
What is going to happen? Who is at fault (Historically and now) ? Is it going to spill over in to other countries in the ME and beyond? In the UK, has Starmer put his foot in it so to speak with his comments that could be seen as supporting collective punishment? Why did the UK not vote alongside the US in the recent UN vote - that was a surprise to me.
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Post by gramsky on Oct 29, 2023 16:47:39 GMT
What is going to happen? Who is at fault (Historically and now) ? Is it going to spill over in to other countries in the ME and beyond? In the UK, has Starmer put his foot in it so to speak with his comments that could be seen as supporting collective punishment? Why did the UK not vote alongside the US in the recent UN vote - that was a surprise to me. What is going to happen? - Israel is going into Gaza to eliminate Hamas, unfortunately at the cost of lots of Palestinian lives. Arab and Muslim nations (Iran, Syria, Turkey, Egypt) will threaten to intervene. If they do there will be war between them and Israel. If the Muslims attack, USA will get involved and Russia will react. Potential WW3. Who is at fault (Historically and now)? - No one has agreed this in 75 years, is a matter of opinion and your source of education on the subject and many books have been written about it. My opinion:- One thing is for sure: the Palestinian refugees have been forced to remain refugees since 1948 when they fled Israel owing to the Arab attack at the time of Israels creation. During the years just after WW2 there were many instances of refugees of various nationalities fleeing various countries. Apart from 1000s of Jews fleeing European countries and Russia there was millions of Muslims fleeing India and Hindus & Sikhs fleeing what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh after the partition of India. Further back in the past there was also the Irish fleeing Ireland to other parts of the world and more recently in Cyprus the Turkish Cypriots fleeing North and the Greek Cypriots fleeing South when Turkey invaded Cyprus. But in all these cases the refugees have been absorbed into the countries they fled to. But not the Palestinians, they have not been allowed to flee to Jordan and Egypt, they are kept in the refugee enclaves created for them under the control of Hamas (who have the destruction of Israel written into their constitution) and who do not have the welfare of the Palestinians at heart and use them as an excuse in a constant war against Israel. I have not been following the Starmer question out of disinterest. Why did the UK not vote alongside the US in the recent UN vote. - because USA has a larger Jewish lobby that they depend on votes from than the Muslims, whereas we have a smaller Jewish lobby and more Muslims.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 29, 2023 18:34:14 GMT
? Who is at fault (Historically and now) ? Is it going to spill over in to other countries in the ME and beyond? In the UK, has Starmer put his foot in it so to speak with his comments that could be seen as supporting collective punishment? Why did the UK not vote alongside the US in the recent UN vote - that was a surprise to me. A potted history of the middle east over the last 2,000 years (I'm certain somebody will correct me if I have got a bit wrong):
- Historically there have been people of varying races and religions living in the area. There have been numerous scuffles and wars over the ages, with the Holy wars (which started about 1,000 years ago) lasting for 200 years on and off.
- Both arabs and jews claim this area as their ancestral homeland
- Prior to world war one, Palestine was part of the Ottaman empire and run by Turkey. Turkey sided with Germany during WW1, and when the allies prevailed Palestine was liberated and the British were given a mandate to run it.
- Over the next 30 years world powers tried to reach an agreement on how the arabs and jews could live together peacefully (either in the same country, or by partitioning Palestine)
- In 1948 the UN gave up trying for a negotiated agreement and proposed to the British (who still held a mandate to run Palestine) the Palestine be partitioned to allow Jewish people a country of their own to live in. The British agreed, gave up their mandate, and Israel immediately declared independence, which was recognised by the UN.
- If the Palestinian people had accepted the 2 state solution the next 75 years of war would probably not have occured. But they didn't, instead the surrounding arab countries attacked Israel attempting to force them from the land that the UN had allocated them. The Israeli army prevailed and thereafter the West Bank was run by Jordan, and Gaza was run by Egypt.
- Fast forward to 1967 and the arab countries had another go at overrunning Israel, in what was known as the 6 day war. Once again the Israelis prevailed, but this time they retained control of adjacent land as a security buffer. This included the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai peninsula (which had been siezed from Egypt) and the Golan heights (siezed from Syria).
- Around 1988 Hamas was formed and its founding charter called for the complete destruction of the state of Israel. For the following 17 years there were skirmished in Gaza involving Hamas. During this period a group of 4 major world powers known as the quartet provided aid for Gaza
- Around 2005 the Israelis decided to give up running Gaza and gave the Palestinina people living there a vote on who should assume power. The 2 main alternatives were Hamas (who everyone knew were bloodthirsty terrorists) and Fatah who were a more moderate group. Hamas prevailed.
- The quartet immediately called upon Hamas to renounce violence, but they refused. As a result the quartet stopped sending aid. Hamas then started a civil war against their Palestinian brothers from Fata, and forced them out of Gaza across into the West Bank.
- For the last 18 years Hamas have been poking Israel with a sharp stick and evey now and then Israel responds.
So to answer your questions:
- What is going to happen - more buildings flattened and more people killed until Israel achieve their objectives
- Is it going to spill over in to other countries - probably not. Egypt and Jordan don't wan't to intervene, Syria has it's own internal problems to sort out, and Lebanon has half the American navy anchored just off the Beirut coast.
- Will there ever be a lasting peace in the middle east - no. Even if Iran (who are stoking up most of the trouble) and the rest of the Arab countries were to normailse relations with Israel, they will never lift the blockade of Gaza as nobody would trust the Iranians not to be sending high tech weapons into Gaza for the Hamas successor to use.
And as a final thought, do the people in Gaza who voted for Hamas bear part of the responsibility for the current violence? Would it be fair to say there is an element of 'you made your bed, you lie in it' here?
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Post by gramsky on Oct 29, 2023 19:14:24 GMT
? Who is at fault (Historically and now) ? Is it going to spill over in to other countries in the ME and beyond? In the UK, has Starmer put his foot in it so to speak with his comments that could be seen as supporting collective punishment? Why did the UK not vote alongside the US in the recent UN vote - that was a surprise to me. A potted history of the middle east over the last 2,000 years (I'm certain somebody will correct me if I have got a bit wrong):
- Historically there have been people of varying races and religions living in the area. There have been numerous scuffles and wars over the ages, with the Holy wars (which started about 1,000 years ago) lasting for 200 years on and off.
- Both arabs and jews claim this area as their ancestral homeland
- Prior to world war one, Palestine was part of the Ottaman empire and run by Turkey. Turkey sided with Germany during WW1, and when the allies prevailed Palestine was liberated and the British were given a mandate to run it.
- Over the next 30 years world powers tried to reach an agreement on how the arabs and jews could live together peacefully (either in the same country, or by partitioning Palestine)
- In 1948 the UN gave up trying for a negotiated agreement and proposed to the British (who still held a mandate to run Palestine) the Palestine be partitioned to allow Jewish people a country of their own to live in. The British agreed, gave up their mandate, and Israel immediately declared independence, which was recognised by the UN.
- If the Palestinian people had accepted the 2 state solution the next 75 years of war would probably not have occured. But they didn't, instead the surrounding arab countries attacked Israel attempting to force them from the land that the UN had allocated them. The Israeli army prevailed and thereafter the West Bank was run by Jordan, and Gaza was run by Egypt.
- Fast forward to 1967 and the arab countries had another go at overrunning Israel, in what was known as the 6 day war. Once again the Israelis prevailed, but this time they retained control of adjacent land as a security buffer. This included the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai peninsula (which had been siezed from Egypt) and the Golan heights (siezed from Syria).
- Around 1988 Hamas was formed and its founding charter called for the complete destruction of the state of Israel. For the following 17 years there were skirmished in Gaza involving Hamas. During this period a group of 4 major world powers known as the quartet provided aid for Gaza
- Around 2005 the Israelis decided to give up running Gaza and gave the Palestinina people living there a vote on who should assume power. The 2 main alternatives were Hamas (who everyone knew were bloodthirsty terrorists) and Fatah who were a more moderate group. Hamas prevailed.
- The quartet immediately called upon Hamas to renounce violence, but they refused. As a result the quartet stopped sending aid. Hamas then started a civil war against their Palestinian brothers from Fata, and forced them out of Gaza across into the West Bank.
- For the last 18 years Hamas have been poking Israel with a sharp stick and evey now and then Israel responds.
So to answer your questions:
- What is going to happen - more buildings flattened and more people killed until Israel achieve their objectives
- Is it going to spill over in to other countries - probably not. Egypt and Jordan don't wan't to intervene, Syria has it's own internal problems to sort out, and Lebanon has half the American navy anchored just off the Beirut coast.
- Will there ever be a lasting peace in the middle east - no. Even if Iran (who are stoking up most of the trouble) and the rest of the Arab countries were to normailse relations with Israel, they will never lift the blockade of Gaza as nobody would trust the Iranians not to be sending high tech weapons into Gaza for the Hamas successor to use.
And as a final thought, do the people in Gaza who voted for Hamas bear part of the responsibility for the current violence? Would it be fair to say there is an element of 'you made your bed, you lie in it' here?
I don't disagree with this post, but would say that Jordan used to be part of Palestine under the mandate until 1946 when the British created it as an Arab county, so the Jordanians used to be Palestinians. I think we did the same here as we did in Ireland in 1922, ie allow those that can live together in peace to create their own independent country (Eire in that case), but hold on to the areas where there is conflict (Northern Ireland) to try to control it. As in Northern Ireland we then came under terrorist attack from Jewish organisations such as the Irgun Group headed by Ben Gurion who killed 100+ British soldiers in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. I think it is for this reason we walked away in 1948 and left it to the League of Nations to handle. Being a debating society they did very little and hence the State of Israel was declared by the Jews. But the Palestinians gained about 80% of Palestine in the form of Jordan and the Jews at one time offered to take only 25% of what was left ie 5% of the original Palestine, but the Palestinians turned it down. And here lies the problem, Hamas are not willing to let the Jews have 1 square metre of the land and there only aim is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Hence the people of Gaza and the West Bank suffer. The Druze living in the Golan Heights captured from Syria by Israel don't suffer in the same way and live in Israel in relative peace. So if the Jordanians used to be Palestinians why won't they allow their brothers from the West Bank to emigrate to their country or make the West Bank part of Jordan. Similarly Gaza part of Egypt? Reason because they are using the Palestinian refugees to punish the Jews with the aim of destroying Israel
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Post by captainconfident on Oct 29, 2023 19:35:33 GMT
For the present moment, the question that should occupy as as to "what's going to happen" should only concern the people being bombed, while without food and with limited salt water to drink. The time for debating the history can come later.
Sorry to come across as censorious here, but I can hardly bare to listen to the news.
What disappoints me about human beings (anyone who contributes here excepted), is the choosing of sides to cheer for. We should be neutral, while vocal against human suffering. The terrorist murders need to be fully compensated for, but that is not what is happening now, at this moment. At this moment people are starving and under aerial bombardment while trapped, unable to do anything. It is unacceptable to me as a moral person and it should be to everyone not Israeli or Palestinian, and it has to stop. Anyone not calling for it to stop including our politicians have lost their moral compass. The politicians particularly, I find dispicable.
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Post by gramsky on Oct 30, 2023 8:15:46 GMT
For the present moment, the question that should occupy as as to "what's going to happen" should only concern the people being bombed, while without food and with limited salt water to drink. The time for debating the history can come later. Sorry to come across as censorious here, but I can hardly bare to listen to the news. What disappoints me about human beings (anyone who contributes here excepted), is the choosing of sides to cheer for. We should be neutral, while vocal against human suffering. The terrorist murders need to be fully compensated for, but that is not what is happening now, at this moment. At this moment people are starving and under aerial bombardment while trapped, unable to do anything. It is unacceptable to me as a moral person and it should be to everyone not Israeli or Palestinian, and it has to stop. Anyone not calling for it to stop including our politicians have lost their moral compass. The politicians particularly, I find dispicable. Without debating and doing your own research into the history you can not have a balanced unbiased opinion of the situation, any news you listen to will be biased and aimed to have exactly the affect on you that you are referring to. I do not listen to the news. Unfortunately your sympathies and outrage are the commodity that Hamas buys when they carry out such an atrocious attack on Israel, killing well over 1000 people and beheading babies, knowing that Israel will react in such a way. That is why they did it under the orders of Iran who are the main trouble makers in the Middle East at present. Israel was about to agree new alliance with Saudi Arabia intended to bring peace to the tumultuous region, but would make Saudi Arabia the uncontested leader of the Middle East. Iran does not want this. Iran (Shia Muslims) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni Muslims) are enemies and are at war, Iran is attacking Saudi Arabia by providing Yemen with arms and rockets to fire at Saudi Arabia, the same as Iran supplies Hamas and Hezbollah with arms and rockets to fire at Israel. Iran and Hamas want the Israelis to attack the Palestinians, they don't care about the Palestinians, they are only interested in reaching their political goals, the destruction of Israel and dominance of the Middle East.
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Post by captainconfident on Oct 30, 2023 8:23:28 GMT
For the present moment, the question that should occupy as as to "what's going to happen" should only concern the people being bombed, while without food and with limited salt water to drink. The time for debating the history can come later. Sorry to come across as censorious here, but I can hardly bare to listen to the news. What disappoints me about human beings (anyone who contributes here excepted), is the choosing of sides to cheer for. We should be neutral, while vocal against human suffering. The terrorist murders need to be fully compensated for, but that is not what is happening now, at this moment. At this moment people are starving and under aerial bombardment while trapped, unable to do anything. It is unacceptable to me as a moral person and it should be to everyone not Israeli or Palestinian, and it has to stop. Anyone not calling for it to stop including our politicians have lost their moral compass. The politicians particularly, I find dispicable. Without debating and doing your own research into the history you can not have a balanced unbiased opinion of the situation, any news you listen to will be biased and aimed to have exactly the affect on you that you are referring to. I do not listen to the news. Unfortunately your sympathies and feelings are the commodity that Hamas buys when they carry out such an atrocious attack on Israel, killing well over 1000 people and beheading babies, knowing that Israel will react in such a way. That is why they did it under the orders of Iran who are the main trouble makers in the Middle East at present. Israel was about to agree new alliance with Saudi Arabia intended to bring peace to the tumultuous region, but would make Saudi Arabia the uncontested leader of the Middle East. Iran does not want this. Iran (Shia Muslims) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni Muslims) are enemies and are at war, Iran is attacking Saudi Arabia by providing Yemen with arms and rockets to fire at Saudi Arabia, the same as Iran supplies Hamas and Hezbollah with arms and rockets to fire at Israel. Iran and Hamas want the Israelis to attack the Palestinians, they don't care about the Palestinians, they are only interested in reaching their political goals, the destruction of Israel and dominance of the Middle East. You have chosen a perspective of history. I guess you are not Palestinian or Israeli. So it is like you have chosen a sports team to cheer for. Even though evidence is available to you that at this moment people are walled in, starving and being bombed with nowhere to hide, your compassion does not stir you. Where have your human values gone? Where have your morals gone?
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Post by gramsky on Oct 30, 2023 8:28:46 GMT
Without debating and doing your own research into the history you can not have a balanced unbiased opinion of the situation, any news you listen to will be biased and aimed to have exactly the affect on you that you are referring to. I do not listen to the news. Unfortunately your sympathies and feelings are the commodity that Hamas buys when they carry out such an atrocious attack on Israel, killing well over 1000 people and beheading babies, knowing that Israel will react in such a way. That is why they did it under the orders of Iran who are the main trouble makers in the Middle East at present. Israel was about to agree new alliance with Saudi Arabia intended to bring peace to the tumultuous region, but would make Saudi Arabia the uncontested leader of the Middle East. Iran does not want this. Iran (Shia Muslims) and Saudi Arabia (Sunni Muslims) are enemies and are at war, Iran is attacking Saudi Arabia by providing Yemen with arms and rockets to fire at Saudi Arabia, the same as Iran supplies Hamas and Hezbollah with arms and rockets to fire at Israel. Iran and Hamas want the Israelis to attack the Palestinians, they don't care about the Palestinians, they are only interested in reaching their political goals, the destruction of Israel and dominance of the Middle East. You have chosen a perspective of history. I guess you are not Palestinian or Israeli. So it is like you have chosen a sports team to cheer for. Even though evidence is available to you that at this moment people are walled in, starving and being bombed with nowhere to hide, your compassion does not stir you. Where have your human values gone? Where have your morals gone? 1. No mention in this thread that you needed to be Israeli (I assume you mean Jewish since there are also Muslim, Druze and Christians living in Israel just as there are Christian Palestinians living in Gaza - their church was bombed) or Palestinian. 2. I am not cheering for anybody. 3. No amount of compassion is going to change the situation, my human values and morals are for peace in the Middle East but the players in the Middle East do not want that.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 11, 2023 16:23:07 GMT
A lot of people marching today.
Seems to me a lot of emphasis on the fringe of all sides. 2 blokes wearing a headband with arabic scroll that apparently reads "Hamas". 30 blokes in a pub (vs the 300,000 police estimate) or marchers wanting to cause trouble. And finally we have the speakers Jeremy Corbyn.
If 300,000+ could be bothered to go out and march I'd say it represents a fairly mainstream view that by in large the citizens of Gaza shouldn't be punished for their leaders (Hamas) awful actions.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 11, 2023 16:50:45 GMT
A lot of people marching today. Seems to me a lot of emphasis on the fringe of all sides. 2 blokes wearing a headband with arabic scroll that apparently reads "Hamas". 30 blokes in a pub (vs the 300,000 police estimate) or marchers wanting to cause trouble. And finally we have the speakers Jeremy Corbyn. If 300,000+ could be bothered to go out and march I'd say it represents a fairly mainstream view that by in large the citizens of Gaza shouldn't be punished for their leaders (Hamas) awful actions. And, out of a third of a million people, the only reported incident appears to have been two halfwits wearing silly hats. Woo. Meanwhile, 90-odd arrests amongst "several hundred" "far-right" counter-protesters, most of them in and around a pub on the march route, following trouble as a probably-overlapping group were trying to force their way through cordons into the secure exclusion zone around the cenotaph this morning, before throwing things at police once they got removed back to the allocated "counter-protest" area...  Yackety-Lenin was reportedly involved in both incidents. Sorry, Cruella, did you say something? As for OoohJeremyTrouserpress - you mean the former chair of the Stop The War Coalition, one of the organisers of this march...? I'd have been more surprised if he wasn't on the speaker's list.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 11, 2023 17:01:25 GMT
A lot of people marching today. Seems to me a lot of emphasis on the fringe of all sides. 2 blokes wearing a headband with arabic scroll that apparently reads "Hamas". 30 blokes in a pub (vs the 300,000 police estimate) or marchers wanting to cause trouble. And finally we have the speakers Jeremy Corbyn. If 300,000+ could be bothered to go out and march I'd say it represents a fairly mainstream view that by in large the citizens of Gaza shouldn't be punished for their leaders (Hamas) awful actions. Don't think that less than 0.5% of the population could reasonably be described as mainstream.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 11, 2023 17:22:07 GMT
A lot of people marching today. Seems to me a lot of emphasis on the fringe of all sides. 2 blokes wearing a headband with arabic scroll that apparently reads "Hamas". 30 blokes in a pub (vs the 300,000 police estimate) or marchers wanting to cause trouble. And finally we have the speakers Jeremy Corbyn. If 300,000+ could be bothered to go out and march I'd say it represents a fairly mainstream view that by in large the citizens of Gaza shouldn't be punished for their leaders (Hamas) awful actions. Don't think that less than 0.5% of the population could reasonably be described as mainstream. Agree. Who said that ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 11, 2023 17:34:37 GMT
Number arrested now into three digits, "vast majority" amongst the counter-protesters - with a large overlap with previous history for football hooliganism.
Seems that some of the pro-Palestine marchers are now trying to even that number, though, by refusing to leave Waterloo station.
Meanwhile, it's apparently all kicking off in Parliament Square, as the counter-protesters are starting in on any pro-Palestinians they can find walking around. The police have batons out.
Maybe they think Waterloo is simply the safest place right now?
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Nov 11, 2023 18:32:07 GMT
let's see 30 blokes in a pub shouting abuse and getting abuse shouted back by several thousand protestors, of course the police are gonna come the heavy handed on the 30.
and given the main counter protests were organised by "the football lads" it's hardly surprising that some of them have convictions for hooliganism.
on a nicer note someone commented in the local weatherspoons on Thursday that the area round the local war memorial looked a bit scruffy.
Yesterday afternoon 2 guys from a local cleaning company turned up and swept up all the leaves, raked the grass, and jet washed all the stonework around the memorial.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Nov 11, 2023 19:07:29 GMT
Meanwhile in Saudi Arabia representatives from about 50 arab countries have been attending a talking shop to discuss the problems in Gaza. Amongst those attending were:
- Saudi crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud,
- Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, and
- Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi
Amongst the topics for discussion were the need for Israel to respect human rights and taking all possible steps to avoid civillian casualties. The final communique called for an immediate ceasefire, condemed the west for dual standards, but was silent on condemnation of Hamas for it's 7th October attack, their use of human shields and the need to release hostages.
What a bunch of hypocritical w**kers.
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