registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 19, 2024 18:12:27 GMT
I'm watching this afternoon's proceedings. They actually minuted the meeting in which they discussed not minuting meetings and / or destroying meeting minutes because those minutes could subsequently need to be disclosed / used in evidence.
Where do you even start?
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 19, 2024 20:06:22 GMT
I'm watching this afternoon's proceedings. They actually minuted the meeting in which they discussed not minuting meetings and / or destroying meeting minutes because those minutes could subsequently need to be disclosed / used in evidence. Where do you even start? the incompetence even extends to their trying to cover up their incompetence
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 24, 2024 9:17:25 GMT
While the current ongoing situation in London with horses - what is beginning to seem like probably Army horses - running wild without their riders is a sad situation (and may yet become tragic), I couldn't help but notice the following:
Horses seen running past Post Office inquiry site
a case of Horses and stable doors perhaps ?
I should make it clear that I hope that any damage to life or limb is minimal, both human and equine
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 24, 2024 10:26:43 GMT
Has anybody seen any information relating to who at (presumably?) Fujistsu ICL tinkered with the data, why they did so, and whether anybody directed them to do so?
At the moment I really don't understand the whys of this.
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 24, 2024 12:14:28 GMT
Has anybody seen any information relating to who at (presumably?) Fujistsu ICL tinkered with the data, why they did so, and whether anybody directed them to do so? At the moment I really don't understand the whys of this.No indeed. One suggestion I thought I read somewhere from one of the SPMs was vindictiveness after seeking help. At least that is what I recall. But I wonder how much of each original problem was actually down to this rather than just down to an overall s**tty system. Sorry, system with a few critical exceptions. Maybe some of the external data changes were done to try and correct those errors exceptions and might have ended up making things worse. Or not. I guess the key point though is not how often data changes were actually made, but rather the simple fact that they were able to be made. 99% of the problems could have been due to defects in the system or even many of the SPMs actually being on the take (I'm not suggesting they actually were BTW): but the simple fact that data could be altered without knowledge or audit trail record suddenly renders any conviction unsafe, and likewise any responsibility on an SPM to be accountable for the balancing of books to be null and void. In the absence of other info, I lean towards the c**ppy system causing a load of errors (comms breakdown with the terminals ? duplicated transactions), and utterly c**ppy back office support that may have compounded the issue. The remote changing of data less of an initial cause and more of a symptom of an utterly awful overall operational system, and an immediate undermining / red flag to attempting to hold SPMs to account for POL failings.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 24, 2024 12:26:22 GMT
Has anybody seen any information relating to who at (presumably?) Fujistsu ICL tinkered with the data, why they did so, and whether anybody directed them to do so? At the moment I really don't understand the whys of this. Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Everything else flows from trying to keep it quiet and find a scapegoat.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Apr 24, 2024 14:01:04 GMT
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james100
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Post by james100 on Apr 24, 2024 14:17:46 GMT
Has anybody seen any information relating to who at (presumably?) Fujistsu ICL tinkered with the data, why they did so, and whether anybody directed them to do so? At the moment I really don't understand the whys of this. Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. Everything else flows from trying to keep it quiet and find a scapegoat. Yes. Unfortunately the Big Bad Wolf is incompetence rather than malice though. Malice, if present here, was initially ground level, with restricted impact. It was Incompetence (basic or strategic versions) that turned it into the wholesale disaster we see today. Not to trivialise the matter, but it's like a walkthrough of the CIA WWII manual on how to decimate workforce productivity through corporate sabotage: www.corporate-rebels.com/blog/cia-field-manual
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 24, 2024 16:15:50 GMT
But for this to have affected hundreds of sub-postmasters this kind of behind the scenes data editing / manipulation must have been effected hundreds, if not thousands of times, which points to systemic problems and some kind of accepted approach to resolving them.
And there's no record of this?
Something just doesn't add up.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 24, 2024 17:01:16 GMT
But for this to have affected hundreds of sub-postmasters this kind of behind the scenes data editing / manipulation must have been effected hundreds, if not thousands of times, which points to systemic problems and some kind of accepted approach to resolving them. And there's no record of this? Something just doesn't add up. There's still more than 11,500 post offices - and there would have been more at the time this was all going on. Prosecutions went on for 15 years after Bates first reported problems, the year after Horizon was introduced. 700 postmasters were prosecuted - about 6% of the current number, and it would have been a smaller %age at the time. That's one HELL of a lot of transactions, the vast majority with no issue. Now, add together a flaky system that occasionally mis-records transactions, and a helpdesk with no audit tracking... you can see that there could easily have been a LOT of errors with rolling back faulty transactions. And many of those would have been ignored, accepted as user error, rolled in to normal adjustments, etc. Wrap all that in an apparent corporate culture of "it can't possibly be our fault" and buck-passing, and you can easily see how the finger-pointing escalated... It's a salutory lesson all round.
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 24, 2024 17:28:57 GMT
But for this to have affected hundreds of sub-postmasters this kind of behind the scenes data editing / manipulation must have been effected hundreds, if not thousands of times, which points to systemic problems and some kind of accepted approach to resolving them. And there's no record of this? Something just doesn't add up. it's rolled out with limited or no real world user side testing layered on insufficient/incompetent system testing layered on poor /rushed implementation layered on incompetent design all driven by a cheapest bidder mentality and a supplier desperate to retain a legacy technology from an acquisition. In the presence of emerging repeating/systemic issues, I can easily imagine a back office support culture arising where back doors were opened (if they were ever shut) and supposed data issues "fixed" by direct manipulation. Or not fixed given what was likely an equally bodged back office/support organisation/skillset. Has there evidence given yet of the scale of Fujitsu staff sticking their fingers into the data ?
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 25, 2024 7:15:01 GMT
I've not been keeping a close eye on the inquiry for a while, certainly not so much as I think registerme has likely been. I was reading an article in The Times which I assume is based on the last couple of days or so. Amongst other things it discusses Susan Crichton, a POL General Counsel and most senior lawyer (while she was there). I'm not sure whether this was as a result of her testifying. Anyway, it seems like she acted at least as some form of bulwark against the POL leadership wanting to control the 'independent' (Second Sight) investigation. In that article I think I have read some of the most inappropriate/damning words that I've seen attributed to a CEO. "Following Crichton’s resignation, Vennells wrote in a file note that Crichton was “more loyal to her professional conduct requirements and put her integrity as a lawyer above the interests of the business”."Well quite Paula. That is how its meant to be. On the face of it, they may not seem that much of a bombshell, but to me that says rather a lot about PV. Also apparently in 2013 PV argued [along with some other directions] against a recommendation made by the Executive Committee to cease prosecutions because they "acted as a deterrent". Presumably PV that was because it was all about "the reputation of the Post Office" not about ensuring a fair judicial process. I wondered at the start of all this how much PV was really directly to blame for much of this, and how much was "just" happening on her watch with the inequity of it all not being apparent to her. I think we're getting answers to that. Crichton appears from this article to be emerging with some credit and integrity. Maybe the first/only of the POL staff - other than the SPMs - to do so.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 25, 2024 7:48:43 GMT
Anyway, it seems like she acted at least as some form of bulwark against the POL leadership wanting to control the 'independent' (Second Sight) investigation. In that article I think I have read some of the most inappropriate/damning words that I've seen attributed to a CEO. "Following Crichton’s resignation, Vennells wrote in a file note that Crichton was “more loyal to her professional conduct requirements and put her integrity as a lawyer above the interests of the business”."Well quite Paula. That is how its meant to be. <double-take> SERIOUSLY? Wow.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Apr 25, 2024 18:50:02 GMT
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Apr 25, 2024 19:39:27 GMT
I have to say I am incredibly impressed by the barristers carrying out the examination of the witnesses. Their command of their briefs is comprehensive, they understand the issues, they are very patient, and very articulate.
And not shy of asking penetrating questions.
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