ethel
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Post by ethel on Jan 5, 2024 18:22:43 GMT
So I'm watching Mr Bates vs The Post Office. It's available on ITV Online. It's astonishingly good. It's also upsetting, and will make you very, very angry. I thoroughly recommend it. Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey is facing further pressure over his handling of the Post Office IT scandal when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government. In May 2010, the Liberal Democrat leader refused to meet Alan Bates, the sub-postmaster who led the campaign to expose the scandal, saying he did not believe it "would serve any purpose".
Yes, with the gift of hindsight they all wish they'd done more. They couldn't be arsed at the time though. History has a habit of turning around and biting such people on the bum.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Jan 5, 2024 18:42:33 GMT
Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey is facing further pressure over his handling of the Post Office IT scandal when he was postal affairs minister in the coalition government. In May 2010, the Liberal Democrat leader refused to meet Alan Bates, the sub-postmaster who led the campaign to expose the scandal, saying he did not believe it "would serve any purpose".
Yes, with the gift of hindsight they all wish they'd done more. They couldn't be arsed at the time though. History has a habit of turning around and biting such people on the bum. Maybe time to hand the title back? Clearly a resigning issue, Liberals are hot on people resigning. Davey was knighted in the 2016 New Years Honours List for 'political and public service'.
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jan 6, 2024 18:21:17 GMT
Yes, with the gift of hindsight they all wish they'd done more. They couldn't be arsed at the time though. History has a habit of turning around and biting such people on the bum. Maybe time to hand the title back? Clearly a resigning issue, Liberals are hot on people resigning. Davey was knighted in the 2016 New Years Honours List for 'political and public service'. a little off topic but isn't it just slightly ironic that the party of the working man and the party of the europhiles are both lead by knights of the realm whereas the toff tories are lead by a commoner. just a thought I believe number 10 has a gallery of portraits of ex PM's, please tell me Liz Truss doesn't get one
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Post by captainconfident on Jan 6, 2024 19:14:46 GMT
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jan 7, 2024 12:28:08 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Jan 7, 2024 12:35:15 GMT
That Private Eye blog post throws in an issue I knew nothing about. The Post Office remains the only body in the UK to run its own prosecutions and campaigners think that if it had to use the Crown Prosecution Service, many cases would not have made it to court. The last organisation with such powers, Customs & Excise, was stripped of them almost a decade ago when it was found to have over-stepped the mark in several high-profile cases.
Here we are www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/the-post-office-trial-the-future-of-private-prosecutionsPost Office as a private prosecutor
The Post Office is in a perhaps unique position as a private prosecutor, and it is that unique position that gave the CCRC the greatest cause for concern upon its referral to the Court of Appeal. Historically, Royal Mail was a public authority but following the Postal Services Act 2011 a majority of shares were floated on the London Stock Exchange. The government sold its remaining shares in 2015 thereby ending 499 years of state ownership.
Royal Mail solicitors are believed to be the earliest known formal investigators and prosecutors in the world and their origins can be traced as far back as 1683. With the introduction of the Penny Black in 1840, the first postage revenue stamp, postal services became more accessible to members of the public and postal traffic volume rose. Inevitably so too did associated crime. The investigations undertaken were serious and varied, including a key role in the detection and capture of the Great Train Robbers.
Following full privatisation in 2015 the Royal Mail Group retained its investigative branch and its legal department and continued to prosecute about 150 cases per year as a private prosecutor. While being granted no investigative powers it has regularly undertaken joint investigations with the police and other investigative bodies that do have statutory investigative powers. It was granted access to the Police National Computer system for intelligence and prosecution purposes. It had financial investigators appointed by the National Crime Agency for the purposes of undertaking financial investigations for restraint and confiscation proceedings, and Royal Mail Group was included within the list of ‘Relevant Public Authorities’ under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 designated to grant authorisations for the carrying out of directed surveillance to investigate crime.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jan 7, 2024 21:41:30 GMT
It was mentioned on Radio 4 earlier that the Post Office have spent more money on lawyers fighting against the clearing of wrongly prosecuted (sub) postmasters than they have compensating those same (sub) Postmasters.
IMHO Ed Davey and Paula Vennells should be giving back their honours although in the latter case the petition to remove it has hit 800,000 signatures.
one thing I don't understand, why when Horizon was wrong the Post Office in many cases forced Postmasters to pay they money back ( despite it not really being owed). But the compensation is being paid by the Government ie it is coming from our pockets.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 7, 2024 22:48:09 GMT
It was mentioned on Radio 4 earlier that the Post Office have spent more money on lawyers fighting against the clearing of wrongly prosecuted (sub) postmasters than they have compensating those same (sub) Postmasters. IMHO Ed Davey and Paula Vennells should be giving back their honours although in the latter case the petition to remove it has hit 800,000 signatures. one thing I don't understand, why when Horizon was wrong the Post Office in many cases forced Postmasters to pay they money back ( despite it not really being owed). But the compensation is being paid by the Government ie it is coming from our pockets. because the Post Office - not to be confused with the spun out Royal Mail - is a wholly state owned company. It just happens to be run at 'arms length' so the likes of Ed Davey can claim that "it wasn't me wat done it".
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 7, 2024 23:45:23 GMT
It was mentioned on Radio 4 earlier that the Post Office have spent more money on lawyers fighting against the clearing of wrongly prosecuted (sub) postmasters than they have compensating those same (sub) Postmasters. IMHO Ed Davey and Paula Vennells should be giving back their honours although in the latter case the petition to remove it has hit 800,000 signatures. one thing I don't understand, why when Horizon was wrong the Post Office in many cases forced Postmasters to pay they money back ( despite it not really being owed). But the compensation is being paid by the Government ie it is coming from our pockets. because the Post Office - not to be confused with the spun out Royal Mail - is a wholly state owned company. It just happens to be run at 'arms length' so the likes of Ed Davey can claim that "it wasn't me wat done it". Beckett, Mandelson (x3), Johnson, Byers, Hewitt, Cable, Darling, Hutton, Javid, Clark, Leadsom, Sharma, Kwateng, Moggy, Shapps, Badenoch ... bit of a list of those that wasnt them that done it
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jan 8, 2024 9:50:43 GMT
wot no Braverman
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 8, 2024 9:56:11 GMT
Never business secretary & so POs controlling shareholder.
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merlin99
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Post by merlin99 on Jan 8, 2024 10:35:38 GMT
It was mentioned on Radio 4 earlier that the Post Office have spent more money on lawyers fighting against the clearing of wrongly prosecuted (sub) postmasters than they have compensating those same (sub) Postmasters. IMHO Ed Davey and Paula Vennells should be giving back their honours although in the latter case the petition to remove it has hit 800,000 signatures. one thing I don't understand, why when Horizon was wrong the Post Office in many cases forced Postmasters to pay they money back ( despite it not really being owed). But the compensation is being paid by the Government ie it is coming from our pockets. For what it is worth I don't think just taking back the honours is anyway near enough of a punishment for Davey and Vennels. It appears that even when it was quite clear that the Horizon project was a bummer both of them vehemently denied it was the cause of the problems and were happy to see the Postmasters take the can. Given that they were happy to see some of the Post Masters go to jail even though they knew they were not the cause I believe Davy and Vennels should face a similar punishment - jail. Incidentally whilst I had nothing to do with Horizon Project itself I had previously been involved with a competitor to Fujitsu in evaluating the needs of the Post Office with a view to bidding for the contract and advised my employer to walk away and not to bid for the contract. Long before the project went live I learned from people involved with the project that it was " a total can of worms".
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jan 8, 2024 11:18:25 GMT
Incidentally whilst I had nothing to do with Horizon Project itself I had previously been involved with a competitor to Fujitsu in evaluating the needs of the Post Office with a view to bidding for the contract and advised my employer to walk away and not to bid for the contract. Long before the project went live I learned from people involved with the project that it was " a total can of worms". That's interesting. One thing I don't understand is why the Horizon project was such a colossal failure. (Perhaps naively) I can't think of anything in the operations of a branch post office that requires anything of sufficient complexity / innovation to warrant such an almighty mess. Retail PoS / branch banking / FX / savings / distribution of pensions and benefits (?) is... not beyond the wit of man...
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Post by bracknellboy on Jan 8, 2024 11:38:33 GMT
Incidentally whilst I had nothing to do with Horizon Project itself I had previously been involved with a competitor to Fujitsu in evaluating the needs of the Post Office with a view to bidding for the contract and advised my employer to walk away and not to bid for the contract. Long before the project went live I learned from people involved with the project that it was " a total can of worms". That's interesting. One thing I don't understand is why the Horizon project was such a colossal failure. (Perhaps naively) I can't think of anything in the operations of a branch post office that requires anything of sufficient complexity / innovation to warrant such an almighty mess. Retail PoS / branch banking / FX / savings / distribution of pensions and benefits (?) is... not beyond the wit of man... interestingly, a former colleague of mine recently posted up on FBook re. Horizon. He had engagement with ICL/Fujitsu on this project as a supplier (he was in IT Sales). He stated he had written to the enquiry - and might be called - but said that more of his 'friends' had more valuable information and urged them to come forward. I'm reading between the lines that perhaps it was probably pretty dysfunctional/chaotic development, and given his particular line of specialisation perhaps the concept of thorough testing was not in their lexicon.
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Post by captainconfident on Jan 8, 2024 11:55:56 GMT
What I didn't understand is that Horizon seems to have been an old fashioned mainframe with wired terminals. So information travelled from the terminals to Bracknell. So it is self evidence that remote access is possible in the other direction. It also seems that transaction details could not be accessed from the terminals so that the remote operator could not analyse their own input and find the source of shortfalls. Was that really the case? Did the malfunctions ever result in whatever the opposite of a shortfall is on the sub- post office accounts?
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