ablender
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Post by ablender on Jun 25, 2016 17:49:30 GMT
That is how petitions are structured. I thought you knew. It will be in parliament that the two sides will meet. Just my SOH, I thought you might have realized ps which way did you vote in 1975? In 1975 it was not my decision to make.
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Post by bluechip on Jun 25, 2016 17:55:16 GMT
I could see the pro's on con's from both sides of this vote. But I am literally dismayed at how many people I hear in the street and on various radio/tv programs that are starting sentences with "I didn't realise". Most of us on here have more than a few brain cells, but some of the people that are giving reasons for why they voted (one way or the other) are contradicting themselves in the same sentence. I have played Devil's Advocate and have swayed almost every person (in and out) I have spoken with from the position they voted on, "oh well, can't change my vote now" is the token response.
It's horrible how uneducated on the facts a lot of the voters are. The majority wouldn't have even heard of Article 50 and 75% of the vote out people I spoke with thought we would be leaving the EU on Friday morning, - ludicrous.
Bring in voter qualification is what I say, otherwise people aren't voting on what they want, they are voting on the best PR campaign.
PS - I think this petition is a ridiculous thing, lose with dignity!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 25, 2016 18:05:16 GMT
Long term the country needs proportional representation, because politics is so regionalised and FPTP isn't working. The "need" for PR comes about solely because of a total misunderstanding in what our vote is FOR. It doesn't elect a PM. It doesn't elect a government. It elects OUR MP. No more than that. It selects who is the single most popular candidate in an area to represent that area at Westminster. And every single area in the country has the single most popular local candidate. For what it's designed to do, it works - and it works WELL. It only fails to work when people expect it to do something it doesn't even pretend to do. If you think politics is regionalised, that's a strong argument to maintain the constituency representation.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 25, 2016 18:07:28 GMT
People have been complaining that the Leave result was caused by the older voters ......... I believe that to be true, 'cos they remember how the thin end of the wedge was given to them in '70s and those that voted in to Europe have regretted it ever since -: *"By the time Mr Heath came to launch his own, successful application to‘enter Europe’ in 1970, he was already well versed in how to pretend that it was something other than what it was. Over the next five years, up to the time of the referendum in 1975, Parliament and the British people were incessantly assured that entry into the Common Market was simply a matter of trade and jobs. In no way would the British way of life be changed or Britain’s right to run her own affairs curtailed." I voted no then because at the time to me it sounded to good to be true. I've had to sit back over the last 40 years and watch successive Governments give more and more of our country away, so yes I am overjoyed that us "oldies" have got our country back so OUR kids can have a proper say in their future not a few dregs thrown to them by Europe. Perhaps not this generation but the next will be able to say in the end it was the right decision. I really hope so. Whether we have lost too much in all those years to get back on track, I don't know. *The above is a small extract from this linkHow you can say that you don't have any time for Farage, then say that, I have no idea... What you've said there is prime UKIP.
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james
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Post by james on Jun 25, 2016 18:13:17 GMT
Very close to 2 million signatures now. I do not think that this is irrelevant - not a small percentage since this is larger than the difference that voted UK to leave EU. Only another million to go then before it reaches the number of non-UK EU nationals in Britain. Has it reached the number of the third of the 8.6 million Londoners who weren't born in the UK yet? As you probably noticed, most of the support is from the London area and it's rather natural that people not even born in the UK might not want to leave the EU. Going just by nationality, 918k of Londoners have non-UK EU nationality, top 15 countries at 10k or more only, and a total of 1.96 million have non-UK nationality. So that's a pretty assured 918k votes to remain... and I assume that the majority of the 3 million EU nationals in the UK would want to support this. Of course, except for the Irish, those folk couldn't vote in the referendum but can count in this total. Eligible to vote were "A British or Irish citizen living in the UK, or. A Commonwealth citizen living in the UK who has leave to remain in the UK or who does not require leave to remain in the UK". Which is in part to illustrate why it is not reasonable to compare voting margins of eligible voters with people who are petitioning Parliament and don't have to have been eligible to vote.
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
Posts: 787
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Post by skippyonspeed on Jun 25, 2016 18:21:31 GMT
People have been complaining that the Leave result was caused by the older voters ......... I believe that to be true, 'cos they remember how the thin end of the wedge was given to them in '70s and those that voted in to Europe have regretted it ever since -: *"By the time Mr Heath came to launch his own, successful application to‘enter Europe’ in 1970, he was already well versed in how to pretend that it was something other than what it was. Over the next five years, up to the time of the referendum in 1975, Parliament and the British people were incessantly assured that entry into the Common Market was simply a matter of trade and jobs. In no way would the British way of life be changed or Britain’s right to run her own affairs curtailed." I voted no then because at the time to me it sounded to good to be true. I've had to sit back over the last 40 years and watch successive Governments give more and more of our country away, so yes I am overjoyed that us "oldies" have got our country back so OUR kids can have a proper say in their future not a few dregs thrown to them by Europe. Perhaps not this generation but the next will be able to say in the end it was the right decision. I really hope so. Whether we have lost too much in all those years to get back on track, I don't know. *The above is a small extract from this linkHow you can say that you don't have any time for Farage, then say that, I have no idea... What you've said there is prime UKIP. Simple, there is something about him that I just don't trust.
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grahamg
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Post by grahamg on Jun 25, 2016 18:52:33 GMT
I could see the pro's on con's from both sides of this vote. But I am literally dismayed at how many people I hear in the street and on various radio/tv programs that are starting sentences with "I didn't realise". Most of us on here have more than a few brain cells, but some of the people that are giving reasons for why they voted (one way or the other) are contradicting themselves in the same sentence. I have played Devil's Advocate and have swayed almost every person (in and out) I have spoken with from the position they voted on, "oh well, can't change my vote now" is the token response. It's horrible how uneducated on the facts a lot of the voters are. The majority wouldn't have even heard of Article 50 and 75% of the vote out people I spoke with thought we would be leaving the EU on Friday morning, - ludicrous. Bring in voter qualification is what I say, otherwise people aren't voting on what they want, they are voting on the best PR campaign. PS - I think this petition is a ridiculous thing, lose with dignity! Actually only 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit. So we are being taken out on a minority vote. The petition now has 2,180,777 signatures and rising at over 2000 per minute. Everyone needs to take notice and sign.
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markr
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Post by markr on Jun 25, 2016 19:13:37 GMT
As has been said earlier, UKIP 's and Farridge's reason for being was to achieve a withdrawal from the EU. Now that process is starting, there is no reason for them to remain. Will they all now resign? They will all resign en masse, but then they will reject each other's resignations and stay after all.
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markr
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Post by markr on Jun 25, 2016 19:20:01 GMT
PS - I think this petition is a ridiculous thing, lose with dignity! As was pointed out up-thread, the ridiculous petition was started a month ago (about the time of Farage's "Unfinished business" faux pas) by a member of a right wing party, as a preemptive dummy-spit over the the expected close Remain win. I've signed it because I find it hilarious.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Jun 25, 2016 19:29:34 GMT
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sqh
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Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
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Post by sqh on Jun 25, 2016 19:56:45 GMT
I fear that counting the votes regionally was a huge mistake, which has created enormous division within the UK. If all the ballot boxes had been sent to a central location (Manchester City Hall) for counting then Scotland and Northern Ireland wouldn't know they voted for remain, and England and Wales wouldn't know they voted to leave. I've even heard London wants independence. How on earth can the Disunited Kingdom negotiate terms with the EU.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jun 25, 2016 20:27:38 GMT
/Mod hat off
Yep, I'd agree counting (or at least presenting the count) by regions was a mistake. Should have been an 'even more secret' ballot, to avoid marital strife.
And if Scotland wants to leave the UK, does that mean the x% of Scots who don't (want to leave the UK) should get a free chance to leave Scotland, or do they get dragged along by the majority? Ditto London's 40% of EU leavers - can't they leave if 60% want to remain? Or should we break it down by Parishes? Oh look - it's the Balkans again, where can we find an Archduke to assassinate? 8>.
As for Boris .. I don't think he'd make a bad figurehead, IFF he can assemble a smart team to do most/all the thinking and legwork. He didn't mess up London too badly from what I can see, but I doubt he managed that all by himself, even on his bike, and while he's not exactly 'common man' standards, at least he doesn't take himself (or anyone else?) too seriously.
So OK, the turkeys were finally goaded into voting for Christmas, on the grounds that at least they'd be rid of many annoyances that way. Time to make it work, whichever way you voted, or get a 'don't blame me, I don't believe in democracy' bumper sticker.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 25, 2016 20:47:34 GMT
I fear that counting the votes regionally was a huge mistake, which has created enormous division within the UK. If all the ballot boxes had been sent to a central location (Manchester City Hall) for counting then Scotland and Northern Ireland wouldn't know they voted for remain, and England and Wales wouldn't know they voted to leave. I've even heard London wants independence. How on earth can the Disunited Kingdom negotiate terms with the EU. So we could then have blamed it all / congratulated it on Manchester ? Bit unfair. Nice point, but a bit of red herring. There are plenty of other demographic analysis being published e.g. by age group. None of that is coming from the counting per se, it's coming from polling. Edit: Oh, and can you imagine the conspiracy theories that would have been doing the rounds if the Govt had organised everything to be sent to a single central location for counting rather than using the infrastructure that is in place for these things ? Forget the 'bring your own pen so you don't have to use a pencil' stuff, this would have been of a whole different ball park (ball pen). And anyway, I wouldn't put my trust in Mancunions being able to count to 17m accurately. [This last bit is a joke just in case of any doubt].
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Jun 25, 2016 21:13:24 GMT
I fear that counting the votes regionally was a huge mistake, which has created enormous division within the UK. If all the ballot boxes had been sent to a central location (Manchester City Hall) for counting then Scotland and Northern Ireland wouldn't know they voted for remain, and England and Wales wouldn't know they voted to leave. I've even heard London wants independence. How on earth can the Disunited Kingdom negotiate terms with the EU. Reading the meetings ms sturgeon is scheduling with eu representatives, I feel a second independence referendum for Scotland is probably a very safe bet around now. I also suspect that this time she will win it. A 'border vote' in NI is less likely but not impossible. London going it alone is a natural destination. I don't see it happening this decade but in say 15 years time the gap between London and what will probably be rUK by then will be huge enough that it will happen. of potentially more short term interest is will the Dutch, French and Italians leave the EU. I can see more votes taking place this decade and some more possible 'leave' wins.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Jun 25, 2016 21:18:32 GMT
A number of posts here imply that Farage / UKIP have much diminished relevance to national politics now we have voted to leave the EU. Until the UK actually withdraws from the EU in 2018 ( ? ) UKIP are still very relevant as a potential existential threat to both labour and tory MP's who fail to take the business of negotiating our exit seriously, and put in place policies that match the new reality. If we have a GE in 2017 to cement in the new tory leader then I expect UKIP will still contest much the same number of seats they did in 2015, although will probably not contest many of the leave campaign mp's seats. However if the general election isn't until 2020 (or at 2017 + 5) it is indeed probable that UKIP will be irrelevant. Well, all those MEPs will be out of a job. Personally I can't see farage and co all quitting politics and getting 'real jobs'. I see them as pushing to be the to the right of the Tories which could be hard as the Tories are about to move a far chunk to the right themselves.
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