jonah
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Post by jonah on Jun 25, 2016 21:22:11 GMT
Long term the country needs proportional representation, because politics is so regionalised and FPTP isn't working. The "need" for PR comes about solely because of a total misunderstanding in what our vote is FOR. It doesn't elect a PM. It doesn't elect a government. It elects OUR MP. No more than that. It selects who is the single most popular candidate in an area to represent that area at Westminster. And every single area in the country has the single most popular local candidate. For what it's designed to do, it works - and it works WELL. It only fails to work when people expect it to do something it doesn't even pretend to do. If you think politics is regionalised, that's a strong argument to maintain the constituency representation. My solution.... Use PR to elect the vast majority of the second chamber. Say 10% appointed from the commons so they can fill cabinet posts, but 90% PR from the people. It clarifies the supremacy of the commons, sorts out the ridiculous size of the lords, fixes the link to a church which is less and less relevant but really means that votes in 75%+ constituencies matter at a national level.
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Post by lb on Jun 25, 2016 21:30:01 GMT
Amazing how many people think Brexit will happen. Leaving is a process of negotiation on separation. The EU is big and bad enough to destroy any prospect of us actually leaving during such "negotiatiaion"
all they have to say is EU will not deal with UK for five years (or impose excessive tariffs) post separation and the UK cannot afford to do it. It would bankrupt the country. They can even do far worse.
When brexit threatens it's very existence the EU are not going to play soft and nice. They are already seeking to speed up the process of separation for which you should read "let's get on with making you understand you are not able to leave"
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Jun 26, 2016 0:02:03 GMT
Reading the meetings ms sturgeon is scheduling with eu representatives, I feel a second independence referendum for Scotland is probably a very safe bet around now. I also suspect that this time she will win it. A 'border vote' in NI is less likely but not impossible. London going it alone is a natural destination. I don't see it happening this decade but in say 15 years time the gap between London and what will probably be rUK by then will be huge enough that it will happen. of potentially more short term interest is will the Dutch, French and Italians leave the EU. I can see more votes taking place this decade and some more possible 'leave' wins. Personally, I'd like Scotland to become independent but it is never going to happen. Firstly, oil is even cheaper now than it was the last time they had a referendum and they simply can't afford to leave the UK. Secondly, the EU does not want them. If the EU were to accept an independent Scotland, it would be a signal to Catalonia and other regions demanding independence to also do the same. It is just not even on the cards.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Jun 26, 2016 0:12:32 GMT
Amazing how many people think Brexit will happen. Leaving is a process of negotiation on separation. The EU is big and bad enough to destroy any prospect of us actually leaving during such "negotiatiaion" all they have to say is EU will not deal with UK for five years (or impose excessive tariffs) post separation and the UK cannot afford to do it. It would bankrupt the country. They can even do far worse. When brexit threatens it's very existence the EU are not going to play soft and nice. They are already seeking to speed up the process of separation for which you should read "let's get on with making you understand you are not able to leave" You seem to have a very limited understanding of politics and economics and also seem a little bitter about the referendum decision not going your way. Brexit is happening and you need to accept it. The conversation is now about how to get the best deal for the UK. The reason for a speedy separation is to remove uncertainty as quickly as possible and not put the economies of the UK and the EU at unnecessary risk. There is no veiled threat as you imply. If anything, the UK has a stronger hand in negotiations as we are a net importer and the EU won't want to stop selling German cars or French wine any time soon.
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Post by batchoy on Jun 26, 2016 6:29:09 GMT
Amazing how many people think Brexit will happen. Leaving is a process of negotiation on separation. The EU is big and bad enough to destroy any prospect of us actually leaving during such "negotiatiaion" all they have to say is EU will not deal with UK for five years (or impose excessive tariffs) post separation and the UK cannot afford to do it. It would bankrupt the country. They can even do far worse. When brexit threatens it's very existence the EU are not going to play soft and nice. They are already seeking to speed up the process of separation for which you should read "let's get on with making you understand you are not able to leave" I have to say that in your bitterness at obviously being on the losing side you are deluding yourself. Whilst there are veiled threats from EU commissioners, and they look as if they are now wanting to speed up the process of integration for remaining countries, and change the rules to prevent further exits, the threats coming from actual countries have very much disappeared simply because they have accepted the reality that they would be destroying their own economies if they acted to use trade to punish the UK, and this would only serve to fuel the growing discontent with the EU that is being seen across many of the net contributor countries in the EU. Brexit was an inevitable outcome of the introduction of the Euro if we weren't going to join which would have seen the UK gradually sidelined into the EEA as the Eurozone faces the inevitable consequence of the Euro which is central control of their economies and thus further integration into a Federal State (in all but name). By choosing to stat leaving the EU now Britain has the opportunity of negotiating things on its own terms whilst it has the stronger hand rather than finding itself in ta similar position to Norway where it pays the price both financially and having to obey the rules but has no say in those rules because suddenly the rules are being set by and for the Eurozone
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Post by oldnick on Jun 26, 2016 6:54:15 GMT
Mod hat on.
The last two posts have been unnecessarily personal - stick to the subject or we may have to take action.
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Post by lb on Jun 26, 2016 7:30:07 GMT
It is not about being bitter.
UK and EU are irrevocably intertwined in too many ways for it simply to be unwound by one side - it's like going into business with a partner where each side has gone to incredible time and expense and then one partner saying they actually want to go it alone but still use all the benefits of the company.
Surely if any of us were EC commissioner we would quite rightly tell such country to GET REAL and that if they do follow through with such stupidity then they are going to be treated like the traitor they are.
German car makers profits are not more important that the stability of the EU - the lies of leave campaign will unravel one by one. Thankfully we will ultimately be saved from our own carelessness and self destruction but not without our global standing and economy having both taken a baseball bat around the head
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 26, 2016 8:35:56 GMT
Anyone fancy a new job? Looks like there could be a few going in the shadow cabinet later today.
It reminds me a bit of the time Maggie was challenged for leadership of the Conservatives. When she got less than 50% in the first ballot her immediate reaction was to say I'm going to stay, but within 24hrs somebody tapped her on the shoulder and said sorry love but you've got to go.
Same fate for JC?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 26, 2016 8:42:10 GMT
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Jun 26, 2016 8:50:26 GMT
Amazing how many people think Brexit will happen. Leaving is a process of negotiation on separation. The EU is big and bad enough to destroy any prospect of us actually leaving during such "negotiatiaion" all they have to say is EU will not deal with UK for five years (or impose excessive tariffs) post separation and the UK cannot afford to do it. It would bankrupt the country. They can even do far worse. When brexit threatens it's very existence the EU are not going to play soft and nice. They are already seeking to speed up the process of separation for which you should read "let's get on with making you understand you are not able to leave" I agree the EU is not going to play soft and nice. There is no way we will get a decent trade deal without agreeing to the free movement of people, contributing to the budget, etc. As of today, it seems very unlikely that we will agree to that (although it may be Boris's fantasy). But that doesn't mean Brexit won't happen. Once we involve Article 50 that's it. If (as I fully expect) we end up with a lousy deal, we will just have to learn to live with the falling living standards, spending cuts, and higher taxes that will be the result. For the last umpteen years the people have been told by the Tory press that everything wrong in this country is Europe's fault. Very little of it is. In a globalised world there is no reason why a British worker should have much higher living standards than one in China. Incomes are converging and will continue to do so. The inequality between countries that resulted from empire, peaked in the 20th Century, and enabled us to afford the welfare state, is coming to an end. Inequality within countries is rising back toward its historical norms. That's why the masses are unhappy, and it's why we have Trump in the US, etc etc. What's to be done about this is the big challenge for this century and it will define our childrens'/grandchildren's futures. What the lightning rod for discontent will be when we are out of the EU I do not know. But the risk of extremism (of both right and left) is growing and politics could get very nasty indeed.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 26, 2016 8:54:23 GMT
Nice idea in principle, but difficult to implement in practice. As an example there was a statement from the leave campaign that we were subject to ***** (enter your own number) laws from Europe. When they asked an expert he said that it all depended on what you call a law. Ultimately if people are lying there are existing laws to deal with it.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 26, 2016 9:04:58 GMT
As of today, it seems very unlikely that we will agree to that (although it may be Boris's fantasy). No, "Boris's fantasy" is just No.10 - Brexit was just a means to an end. <applause> And the sooner people realise this, the better. But there are other ramifications, too... As many in the developing world stop having to worry about where their next meal, or clean water, is coming from, they're starting to wonder why they can't have cars and big TVs and iPods and all the other bits of disposable bling of the developed world. And the planet simply cannot sustain 7bn people living like rich westerners. It can just about sustain 1.5bn living like rich westerners plus 5.5bn at various levels of poverty, but that's neither going to stay nor should stay. Yup. Just look at who's happy... Putin. ISIS. The European far-right. Trump. A weak Europe is not good at all for the stability of the world.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 26, 2016 9:06:35 GMT
Amazing how many people think Brexit will happen. Leaving is a process of negotiation on separation. The EU is big and bad enough to destroy any prospect of us actually leaving during such "negotiatiaion" all they have to say is EU will not deal with UK for five years (or impose excessive tariffs) post separation and the UK cannot afford to do it. It would bankrupt the country. They can even do far worse. When brexit threatens it's very existence the EU are not going to play soft and nice. They are already seeking to speed up the process of separation for which you should read "let's get on with making you understand you are not able to leave" I agree the EU is not going to play soft and nice. I'm certain that will be their opening gambit, but will it be sustainable? Can you imagine the German finance minister going to the boss of BMW and telling him he has to add 25% export tax on all the cars he sells to UK. Ditto holidays in Spain. Ultimately it's in the best interest of both parties to come to an agreement, but I do accept that free movement of people is going to be a difficult nut to crack.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 26, 2016 9:16:45 GMT
Can you imagine the German finance minister going to the boss of BMW and telling him he has to add 25% export tax on all the cars he sells to UK. That's not how tariffs work. They're charged on imports, not exports. So the EU would say "Well, the UK is now outside the EU and EEA, and we have no trade deal, so WTO rules apply - which means all imports from the UK are charged duty in the same way as imports from China or the US or Outer Mongolia - 10% duty". Since there would be no trade deal, the UK would also be charging that 10% duty on imports that were previously zero-rated in the single market.
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locutus
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Post by locutus on Jun 26, 2016 9:25:36 GMT
Yup. Just look at who's happy... Putin. ISIS. The European far-right. Trump. A weak Europe is not good at all for the stability of the world. And look who is unhappy because they were strong supporters of Remain. Goldman Sachs. JP Morgan. Soros. Lots of CEOs of multinationals. The SNP. The Lib Dems. Most of the Labour party. Merkel. Holland. Obama.
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