starfished
Member of DD Central
Posts: 298 
Likes: 216
|
Post by starfished on Jun 9, 2017 17:36:18 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 17:55:59 GMT
I am not a big fan of the tories even though I tend to vote for them. In my opinion they made a miscalculation assuming that the average person in this country could grasp the importance of this election for the future of the country. The fact that the same people who voted for UKIP decided to vote for a hung parliament during the brexit negotiations says it all. The only people who seem to grasp what is at stake are the Scottish, but it has always been said they are the canniest of the bunch  I do love trying to deconstruct election results, especially with the benefit of hindsight I think your analysis is very good. They have made a massive miscalculation regarding the nature of the electorate in this country, although I would like to point out it is very unlikely there is such a thing as a "Soft Brexit". The EU has far too much to lose from allowing the UK to negotiate their position in a reasonable fashion, their only option is to make an example of us to scare the other members into not trying the same thing. The EU seems to fall back on bully boy tactics when any of the member states vote for something they dont like. Although I am not against the concept of the EU what it has become is corrupt and totalitarian in nature, and this is highlighted by the position the UK now finds itself in. Although I am was not enirely sure Brexit was the right thing given the amount of instability in the World at the moment y - I do believe that now we are on this course we need a strong government to negotiate on our behalf. What really amazes me are these morons in marginal seats who voted UKIP (and I assuming brexit also) then voted labour for a hung parliament. In other words, the typical old style, unthinking Labour voter. They do not identify with Hampstead and Islington style socialism and in many cases are actually more socially conservative with a small “c” than many Tories yet the Conservatives have never been able to win their support. I speak from personal experience of people I’ve managed, members of my wife’s family and some of her in laws, people who would never dream of voting Conservative yet in all probability voted leave in 2016 but were unable to see beyond the tribal instincts of “you’ve got to vote Labour because t’ family always have done” in 2017. The red rosette on a donkey syndrome is still alive and well throughout the North and no doubt other former industrial areas especially the old mining areas where the 1911 miner’s strike and 1926 general strike are as much part of folklore as the 1984 strike. All of which means there are rich pickings for a Corbyn Labour party that effectively talks class war and promises financial goodies through punitive taxation of “the rich”, at which point all thought of voting to support Brexit goes out of the window hence my opening comment about the typical Labour voter. Nothing to do with Brexit or immigration and like them or not, UKIP could have done the country a great service by weaning these voters away from Labour thereby ensuring that we would not have the spectre of a Marxist cabal attempting to ruin the country after the next election. Unfortunately this was not to be due to UKIP’s inability to organise a p*ss up in a brewery and this plus the appalling Conservative campaign are two of the major causes of the situation we now find ourselves in.
|
|
|
|
Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 18:03:20 GMT
“In March she raised the issue of cuts to domestic violence services in the House of Commons” Poor show if they need those in the Commons.
|
|
dzo
Member of DD Central
Posts: 158 
Likes: 150
|
Post by dzo on Jun 9, 2017 19:02:21 GMT
I blame the Yoof's , i'm not sure what corbyn has got, but it seemed to excite them enough into voting for him.  There's a reason many vote Labour in their youth, with many then graduating slowly to Conservative as they get older. In your youth you know Football Association about anything, but think and are convinced that you know everything.
Then of course as you age you tend to have learned, experienced, and know a smidgen more; you realise in your dotage that you don't know everything, but you do know that you know a little bit more. The reason people become more conservative as they age is the same reason people swap volatile stocks for fixed income investments closer to retirement. They have less time left so change is seen as much riskier. Of course there's also the old addage of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks. As we age our brain plasticity decreases leaving us struggling to keep up with the modern world and yearning for supposedly simpler times.
|
|
Steerpike
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,977
Likes: 1,687
|
Post by Steerpike on Jun 9, 2017 19:07:14 GMT
Nowhere is this seen more clearly than JC and JM bashing out the same old marxist policies that they have done for the last 30 years. Newthink |
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 789
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 9, 2017 19:09:09 GMT
In other words, the typical old style, unthinking Labour voter. They do not identify with Hampstead and Islington style socialism and in many cases are actually more socially conservative with a small “c” than many Tories yet the Conservatives have never been able to win their support. Being an individualist I find it very hard to understand mindless tribal thinking and the ridiculous behaviour it leads to. Anyhow the vote is cast now and I am hoping the political parties try to cooperate for the good of the country and the EU/World. For some reason I keep getting the feeling we are all standing on the edge of something pretty nasty.
|
|
dzo
Member of DD Central
Posts: 158
Likes: 150
|
Post by dzo on Jun 9, 2017 19:09:39 GMT
I am not a big fan of the tories even though I tend to vote for them. In my opinion they made a miscalculation assuming that the average person in this country could grasp the importance of this election for the future of the country. The fact that the same people who voted for UKIP decided to vote for a hung parliament during the brexit negotiations says it all. The only people who seem to grasp what is at stake are the Scottish, but it has always been said they are the canniest of the bunch I think your analysis is very good. They have made a massive miscalculation regarding the nature of the electorate in this country, although I would like to point out it is very unlikely there is such a thing as a "Soft Brexit". The EU has far too much to lose from allowing the UK to negotiate their position in a reasonable fashion, their only option is to make an example of us to scare the other members into not trying the same thing. The EU seems to fall back on bully boy tactics when any of the member states vote for something they dont like. Although I am not against the concept of the EU what it has become is corrupt and totalitarian in nature, and this is highlighted by the position the UK now finds itself in. Although I am was not enirely sure Brexit was the right thing given the amount of instability in the World at the moment y - I do believe that now we are on this course we need a strong government to negotiate on our behalf. What really amazes me are these morons in marginal seats who voted UKIP (and I assuming brexit also) then voted labour for a hung parliament. In other words, the typical old style, unthinking Labour voter. They do not identify with Hampstead and Islington style socialism and in many cases are actually more socially conservative with a small “c” than many Tories yet the Conservatives have never been able to win their support. I speak from personal experience of people I’ve managed, members of my wife’s family and some of her in laws, people who would never dream of voting Conservative yet in all probability voted leave in 2016 but were unable to see beyond the tribal instincts of “you’ve got to vote Labour because t’ family always have done” in 2017. The red rosette on a donkey syndrome is still alive and well throughout the North and no doubt other former industrial areas especially the old mining areas where the 1911 miner’s strike and 1926 general strike are as much part of folklore as the 1984 strike. All of which means there are rich pickings for a Corbyn Labour party that effectively talks class war and promises financial goodies through punitive taxation of “the rich”, at which point all thought of voting to support Brexit goes out of the window hence my opening comment about the typical Labour voter. Nothing to do with Brexit or immigration and like them or not, UKIP could have done the country a great service by weaning these voters away from Labour thereby ensuring that we would not have the spectre of a Marxist cabal attempting to ruin the country after the next election. Unfortunately this was not to be due to UKIP’s inability to organise a p*ss up in a brewery and this plus the appalling Conservative campaign are two of the major causes of the situation we now find ourselves in. I find this sort of attitude incredibly patronising. Working class people vote the same way as wealthy people - for the party that represents their economic interests. Why should they be expected to vote Tory?
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 789
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 9, 2017 19:15:27 GMT
I find this sort of attitude incredibly patronising. Working class people vote the same way as wealthy people - for the party that represents their economic interests. Why should they be expected to vote Tory? Whatever sector your work in or segment of society you represent it is NOT in your interest to vote for Brexit then vote for a hung parliament. It is economic suicide. I was talking about the UKIP/Brexiter voters who have now decided to vote for Labour in marginal seats (which a large number must have done). Basically they have fckd the country.
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,168
Likes: 4,859
|
Post by ozboy on Jun 9, 2017 19:15:57 GMT
There's a reason many vote Labour in their youth, with many then graduating slowly to Conservative as they get older. In your youth you know Football Association about anything, but think and are convinced that you know everything.
Then of course as you age you tend to have learned, experienced, and know a smidgen more; you realise in your dotage that you don't know everything, but you do know that you know a little bit more. The reason people become more conservative as they age is the same reason people swap volatile stocks for fixed income investments closer to retirement. They have less time left so change is seen as much riskier. Of course there's also the old addage of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks. As we age our brain plasticity decreases leaving us struggling to keep up with the modern world and yearning for supposedly simpler times. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, dzo, but I disagree. In the context we speak about, it's to do with being more "informed" as you get older, and the reality of what works, and what doesn't. The naive scales falling from your rose tinted glasses (how's that for mixing metaphors!) make for much clearer vision and understanding. IMHO.
|
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Jun 9, 2017 19:18:03 GMT
....There's a reason many vote Labour in their youth, with many then graduating slowly to Conservative as they get older. The reason people become more conservative as they age is the same reason people swap volatile stocks for fixed income investments closer to retirement. They have less time left so change is seen as much riskier. Of course there's also the old addage of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks. As we age our brain plasticity decreases leaving us struggling to keep up with the modern world and yearning for supposedly simpler times. I disagree on the grounds that you have addressed a completely different point. ozboy used the term "Conservative" not "conservative": there is a very big difference. Somebody voting Conservative in the 70's/early 80's was hardly voting for maintaining the status quo/minimal change. Quite the opposite. In the context of the prior 20-30 or more years of post war politics they were voting for radicalism, not small c "conservatism".
|
|
dzo
Member of DD Central
Posts: 158
Likes: 150
|
Post by dzo on Jun 9, 2017 19:35:11 GMT
I find this sort of attitude incredibly patronising. Working class people vote the same way as wealthy people - for the party that represents their economic interests. Why should they be expected to vote Tory? Whatever sector your work in or segment of society you represent it is NOT in your interest to vote for Brexit then vote for a hung parliament. It is economic suicide. I was talking about the UKIP/Brexiter voters who have now decided to vote for Labour in marginal seats (which a large number must have done). Basically they have fckd the country. I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. My comment was in response to yorkshireman's belief that working class Labour voters are tribalistic idiots who don't know what they're doing. It's something I hear quite a lot from Tories and I think it shows a remarkable lack of insight. Is it really so hard to understand why working class voters hate a party that has consistently made their lives worse?
|
|
rxdav
Member of DD Central
Posts: 354
Likes: 349
|
Post by rxdav on Jun 9, 2017 19:40:30 GMT
Well I'll throw in my two pence (2d that is). I totally concur with a large chunk of what has been written on this thread previously - and I do feel (no empirical evidence yet - so anecdotal) that the turnout of 'yoof' has been a significant factor in TM's unsightly debunking. That and a suicidal manifesto, a superficially moral but sadly naïve belief in telling the great British voting public the truth about the affordability of social care (as opposed to what they want to hear), putting pensioners in the crosshairs, balking at TV debates (understandable - but unwise).......etc. etc. Whoever ran the Tory campaign should be shot at dawn - and likely (metaphorically) will be.
Then there's JC - well what can I add - I simply can't think of anyone else who could be said to make Michael Foot look statesmanlike (I think that says it all really)!?
If I were 'yoof' again, and as embarrassingly gormless and clueless as I undoubtedly was then (I cringe looking in retrospect) - I would undoubtedly fall for the promise of free tuition fees at Uni and rock up to exercise my vote for JC - which 18 year old wouldn't?
As For Abbott (God help us) and McDonald (is he still alive?) - what a crew that would make - you really couldn't make this up could you?
So - after a serious attempt at self mutilation we have TM now in Intensive Care (but still wearing make-up and a power dress) - with her Irish Consultants in charge of her return to health - or not.
I wanted us out of the EU for many reasons - one of which was to put some distance between the UK and the eminently Certifiable - but given the unedifying situation I survey today I'm beginning to think (forgive my quote from 'The Last Crusade') 'I chose ... poorly' !!!
Another pint of wallop please...................
|
|
dzo
Member of DD Central
Posts: 158
Likes: 150
|
Post by dzo on Jun 9, 2017 19:44:48 GMT
The reason people become more conservative as they age is the same reason people swap volatile stocks for fixed income investments closer to retirement. They have less time left so change is seen as much riskier. Of course there's also the old addage of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks. As we age our brain plasticity decreases leaving us struggling to keep up with the modern world and yearning for supposedly simpler times. I disagree on the grounds that you have addressed a completely different point. ozboy used the term "Conservative" not "conservative": there is a very big difference. Somebody voting Conservative in the 70's/early 80's was hardly voting for maintaining the status quo/minimal change. Quite the opposite. In the context of the prior 20-30 or more years of post war politics they were voting for radicalism, not small c "conservatism". Fair point, but I still think the phenomenon of older people being more likely to vote Conservative is down to their social conservatism. Is there evidence that people move to the right economically as they age that isn't explained by them having built up more wealth?
|
|
|
|
Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 19:57:02 GMT
In other words, the typical old style, unthinking Labour voter. They do not identify with Hampstead and Islington style socialism and in many cases are actually more socially conservative with a small “c” than many Tories yet the Conservatives have never been able to win their support. For some reason I keep getting the feeling we are all standing on the edge of something pretty nasty. Yep, an anti semitic Marxist government with the likes of McDonnell alongside Abbott and Costello Corbyn and Momentum as the storm troopers.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 789
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 9, 2017 20:19:43 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. It is debatable as to whether leaving the EU is good or bad for the economy. It will depend on the negotations and whether you believe the EU has a future or will fall apart. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government during some of the most important negotiations in this countries history by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid.
|
|
