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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 20:21:06 GMT
Whatever sector your work in or segment of society you represent it is NOT in your interest to vote for Brexit then vote for a hung parliament. It is economic suicide. I was talking about the UKIP/Brexiter voters who have now decided to vote for Labour in marginal seats (which a large number must have done). Basically they have fckd the country. I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. My comment was in response to yorkshireman 's belief that working class Labour voters are tribalistic idiots who don't know what they're doing. It's something I hear quite a lot from Tories and I think it shows a remarkable lack of insight. Is it really so hard to understand why working class voters hate a party that has consistently made their lives worse? I'm not being either patronising or rude but if you're from a middle class background and you’ve never worked on a factory floor or managed factory staff then with respect, your experience of working class attitudes and views may be idealised. There’s also a parallel with people who live in say, Devon, the Cotswolds or Hampstead and indeed many politicians, thinking that all Muslims are the same because they only rub shoulders with educated people whereas the reality on the ground in some areas of Bradford, Dewsbury, Leeds etc. is completely different. No offence intended to yourself or any anyone else.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 20:23:23 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid. Spot on! That's exactly what I've attempted to highlight in my earlier comment.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 9, 2017 20:25:48 GMT
older people being more likely to vote Conservative is down to their social conservatism. No, it's down to the fact that they are old enough to remember what a complete lash up it was the last time 'old' Labour was in power.
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starfished
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Post by starfished on Jun 9, 2017 20:36:44 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. It is debatable as to whether leaving the EU is good or bad for the economy. It will depend on the negotations and whether you believe the EU has a future or will fall apart. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government during some of the most important negotiations in this countries history by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid. I really didn't want to get too involved in this thread but here goes... 1) Calling people you disagree with idiots helps no one. Especially if you want them on your side later. 2) Most labour/conservative people I know, vote for what they think is best for the country rather than just their own personal pocket. That caricature, especially of the right, does them a disservice. In my experience, most want the best for the country, genuinely so, they just have different ideas on how we can get there. 3) Surely a swing from UKIP to Labour can make sense if you assume being pro-Brexit was not just about immigration (ironically like Corbyn). Some have been offended that their vote for Brexit had been interpreted to signify they hold certain views about immigration. TM then, for some reason, decided every vote for Brexit was exactly just that narrow interpretation rather than something more nuanced. Now if that is how your vote is being presented to you, what do you do next to explain that is not what you meant?
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angrysaveruk
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Say No To T.D.S
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 9, 2017 20:53:33 GMT
I really didn't want to get too involved in this thread but here goes... 1) Calling people you disagree with idiots helps no one. Especially if you want them on your side later. I dont want these people on my side, I want them as far away from me as possible
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happy
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Post by happy on Jun 9, 2017 20:54:52 GMT
older people being more likely to vote Conservative is down to their social conservatism. No, it's down to the fact that they are old enough to remember what a complete lash up it was the last time a 'old' Labour was in power. and the time before that......... 
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dzo
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Post by dzo on Jun 9, 2017 20:56:04 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. My comment was in response to yorkshireman 's belief that working class Labour voters are tribalistic idiots who don't know what they're doing. It's something I hear quite a lot from Tories and I think it shows a remarkable lack of insight. Is it really so hard to understand why working class voters hate a party that has consistently made their lives worse? I'm not being either patronising or rude but if you're from a middle class background and you’ve never worked on a factory floor or managed factory staff then with respect, your experience of working class attitudes and views may be idealised. There’s also a parallel with people who live in say, Devon, the Cotswolds or Hampstead and indeed many politicians, thinking that all Muslims are the same because they only rub shoulders with educated people whereas the reality on the ground in some areas of Bradford, Dewsbury, Leeds etc. is completely different. No offence intended to yourself or any anyone else. You've made a lot of (inaccurate) assumptions about my background. It seems your modus operandi when faced with disagreement is to attribute it to stupidity, lack of knowledge, or a personality defect. It's quite obvious why poor people are more likely to vote Labour and the well off are more likely to vote Tory, but there'll always be people who convince themselves that their self-interest is actually good for everyone.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 9, 2017 21:18:52 GMT
Some analysis (google 2017 'how uk voted 7 charts' if it comes up paywall) www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89bTory increased their vote significantly amongst working class, far more than they did amongst middle class (BBC reports) and did better in Leave areas than Remain (surprise) Turnout is big factor in this as both main parties increased their number of votes overall. Rise of youth vote for Labour has offset rise in ex-UKIP to Tories. |
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
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Post by skippyonspeed on Jun 9, 2017 21:59:29 GMT
Whatever sector your work in or segment of society you represent it is NOT in your interest to vote for Brexit then vote for a hung parliament. It is economic suicide. I was talking about the UKIP/Brexiter voters who have now decided to vote for Labour in marginal seats (which a large number must have done). Basically they have fckd the country. My comment was in response to yorkshireman 's belief that working class Labour voters are tribalistic idiots who don't know what they're doing. It's something I hear quite a lot from Tories and I think it shows a remarkable lack of insight. Is it really so hard to understand why working class voters hate a party that has consistently made their lives worse? How can you say that.......we haven't actually left yet!!!!!!
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 9, 2017 22:12:05 GMT
I'm not being either patronising or rude but if you're from a middle class background and you’ve never worked on a factory floor or managed factory staff then with respect, your experience of working class attitudes and views may be idealised. There’s also a parallel with people who live in say, Devon, the Cotswolds or Hampstead and indeed many politicians, thinking that all Muslims are the same because they only rub shoulders with educated people whereas the reality on the ground in some areas of Bradford, Dewsbury, Leeds etc. is completely different. No offence intended to yourself or any anyone else. You've made a lot of (inaccurate) assumptions about my background. It seems your modus operandi when faced with disagreement is to attribute it to stupidity, lack of knowledge, or a personality defect. It's quite obvious why poor people are more likely to vote Labour and the well off are more likely to vote Tory, but there'll always be people who convince themselves that their self-interest is actually good for everyone. I’ve made no assumptions whatsoever about your background, neither do I adopt the usual left wing smear tactics you appear to be using when you accuse me of condescension toward others. To further enhance my credentials for commenting on the working class, both of my parents were born and brought up in rented 1 up, 1 down back to back houses with outside toilets and 1 tap for cold running water surrounded by mills and other factories but by hard work and aspiration rather than blindly joining a trade union and being held back to suit socialist aims, they succeeded in improving their lot and bought their own house, only to be initially let down by myself who left grammar school at 15, nearly 16 with 3 O levels and no idea about a career. I started work on the factory floor at £5 per week in 1963, learned my trade and by changing employers advanced my career eventually becoming Production Director with one firm, all the while working with and eventually managing people from various backgrounds including a large Muslim workforce with one firm, much of which gave me exposure to unionised environments and a comprehensive insight into socialist views therefore I feel that I am well qualified to make observations, not judgements, on working class attitudes.
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fasty
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Post by fasty on Jun 9, 2017 22:24:40 GMT
So, we end up with emasculated government that won't be able to decide anything. Any bets on how long May will last? My prediction is 3 months.
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kmac
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Post by kmac on Jun 9, 2017 23:36:01 GMT
There's a reason many vote Labour in their youth, with many then graduating slowly to Conservative as they get older. I think it was Churchill who said "If you are not a socialist by the time you are 18, you have not got a heart. If you are not a conservative by the time you are 30, you have not got a head.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 10, 2017 7:58:30 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy.My comment was in response to yorkshireman 's belief that working class Labour voters are tribalistic idiots who don't know what they're doing. It's something I hear quite a lot from Tories and I think it shows a remarkable lack of insight. Is it really so hard to understand why working class voters hate a party that has consistently made their lives worse? How can you say that.......we haven't actually left yet!!!!!! And if the re-moaners get their way, we won't be leaving at all ... so much for democracy.
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JamesFrance
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Port Grimaud 1974
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Post by JamesFrance on Jun 10, 2017 9:33:28 GMT
I expected this result from the moment Corbyn announced free university education. The young seem to believe that a government could pay for that, restore all public sector cuts, benefit cuts, provide free social care for all and do away with public sector pay restraint. All those and lots more things people may want and all paid for by a modest increase in tax for the successful and an increase in company tax.
That's how they persuaded them to vote and who wouldn't like all those things if they were available.
Older people know that is impossible, but apart from the odd reference to a magic money tree it was hardly challenged by the Conservative side.
A thoroughly dishonest campaign by Labour but it nearly succeeded.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jun 10, 2017 10:06:41 GMT
I wasn't defending the leave voters. They've wrecked our economy. It will depend on the negotations and whether you believe the EU has a future or will fall apart. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government during some of the most important negotiations in this countries history by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid. Not really debatable in the forseeable future - see e.g. www.economist.com/news/leaders/21723191-conservatives-botched-campaign-will-bring-chaosand-opportunities-theresa-mays-failed-gamble"the economy is heading for the rocks in a way that few have yet registered. Whereas in 2016 the economy defied the Brexit referendum to grow at the fastest pace in the G7, in the first quarter of this year it was the slowest. Unemployment is at its lowest in decades, but with inflation at a three-year high and rising, real wages are falling. Tax revenues and growth will suffer as inward investment falls and net migration of skilled Europeans tails off. Voters are blissfully unaware of the coming crunch. Just when they have signalled at the ballot box that they have had enough of austerity, they are about to face even harder times." Only really debatable in relation to a very long time hence, and whether the very real pain we are about to endure will have been worth it and the losses can be made up.
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