IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Jun 10, 2017 10:13:28 GMT
How can you say that.......we haven't actually left yet!!!!!! And if the re-moaners get their way, we won't be leaving at all ... so much for democracy. If - big if - the people changed their minds when the reality of the deal became clear, would it be democratic to reflect that and not leave?
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ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on Jun 10, 2017 10:25:17 GMT
I expected this result from the moment Corbyn announced free university education. The young seem to believe that a government could pay for that, restore all public sector cuts, benefit cuts, provide free social care for all and do away with public sector pay restraint. All those and lots more things people may want and all paid for by a modest increase in tax for the successful and an increase in company tax. That's how they persuaded them to vote and who wouldn't like all those things if they were available. Older people know that is impossible, but apart from the odd reference to a magic money tree it was hardly challenged by the Conservative side. A thoroughly dishonest campaign by Labour but it nearly succeeded. Yep, just about sums it up JamesFrance. 
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angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 10, 2017 11:41:24 GMT
It is debatable as to whether leaving the EU is good or bad for the economy. It will depend on the negotations and whether you believe the EU has a future or will fall apart. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government during some of the most important negotiations in this countries history by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid. Not really debatable in the forseeable future - see e.g. www.economist.com/news/leaders/21723191-conservatives-botched-campaign-will-bring-chaosand-opportunities-theresa-mays-failed-gamble"the economy is heading for the rocks in a way that few have yet registered. Whereas in 2016 the economy defied the Brexit referendum to grow at the fastest pace in the G7, in the first quarter of this year it was the slowest. Unemployment is at its lowest in decades, but with inflation at a three-year high and rising, real wages are falling. Tax revenues and growth will suffer as inward investment falls and net migration of skilled Europeans tails off. Voters are blissfully unaware of the coming crunch. Just when they have signalled at the ballot box that they have had enough of austerity, they are about to face even harder times." Only really debatable in relation to a very long time hence, and whether the very real pain we are about to endure will have been worth it and the losses can be made up. The "economist" is a fairly left of centre, pro-eu, globalist publication so I wouldnt go to them for an unbiased opinion on anything - especially not Brexit. Although I would agree over the short to medium term there will be some negative effects - the extent of these will depend to an extent on how well we negotiate our exit. The simple reality is this country (along with the west as a whole with the possible exception of germany) consumes more than it produces and at some point there is going to be a rebalancing. Being part of a giant Totalitarian Kleptocracy like the EU might disguise the fundamental flaws in our economy for a bit longer but certainly wont fix them. I am a bit old fashioned and believe that free-markets, people reaping what they sow and paying the price for their own mistakes is generally a better way of organising things than giant undemocratic corrupt bureaucracies with hidden agendas.
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on Jun 10, 2017 11:55:17 GMT
I expected this result from the moment Corbyn announced free university education. The problem is the gullible can't see past JC's short term economic policies (whether it be an end to tuition fees, no increase in the retirement age or support for WASPI). I was chatting to a colleague at work who has young children, and they said they voted Conservative because they didn't want their kids to have to worry about having to pay off all the debts that JC would run up.
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jo
Member of DD Central
dead
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Post by jo on Jun 10, 2017 11:59:18 GMT
The "economist" is a fairly left of centre, pro-eu, globalist publication so I wouldnt go to them for an unbiased opinion on anything - especially not Brexit. Although I would agree over the short to medium term there will be some negative effects - the extent of these will depend to an extent on how well we negotiate our exit. The simple reality is this country (along with the west as a whole with the possible exception of germany) consumes more than it produces and at some point there is going to be a rebalancing. Being part of a giant Totalitarian Kleptocracy like the EU might disguise the fundamental flaws in our economy for a bit longer but certainly wont fix them. I am a bit old fashioned and believe that free-markets, people reaping what they sow and paying the price for their own mistakes is generally a better way of organising things than giant undemocratic corrupt bureaucracies with hidden agendas. Agreed. Since the Financial Crisis, The FT and The Economist have been fantastic contra-indicators. Basically, whatever they hate: Uber, P2P, AirBNB etc etc, go large.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 10, 2017 12:28:52 GMT
And if the re-moaners get their way, we won't be leaving at all ... so much for democracy. If - big if - the people changed their minds when the reality of the deal became clear, would it be democratic to reflect that and not leave? Well not really, what would be democratic is to offer the final deal to yet another referendum, which is funnily what all the wishy washy's are clamouring for, IMHO we were offered a referendum, we had plenty of time to mull it over and the majority voted to leave, so that's that, We should now trust the newly elected govt to get us all the best deal...the quicker we now get out the better.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 12:41:49 GMT
It is debatable as to whether leaving the EU is good or bad for the economy. It will depend on the negotations and whether you believe the EU has a future or will fall apart. What is not debatable is that voting for an Anti-EU hard right wing free market Thatcherite party like UKIP (and voting for brexit) and then crippling the Tory government during some of the most important negotiations in this countries history by voting for someone who is on the complete opposite of the political spectrum and probably a full blown marxist is just plain stupid. Not really debatable in the forseeable future - see e.g. www.economist.com/news/leaders/21723191-conservatives-botched-campaign-will-bring-chaosand-opportunities-theresa-mays-failed-gamble"the economy is heading for the rocks in a way that few have yet registered. Whereas in 2016 the economy defied the Brexit referendum to grow at the fastest pace in the G7, in the first quarter of this year it was the slowest. Unemployment is at its lowest in decades, but with inflation at a three-year high and rising, real wages are falling. Tax revenues and growth will suffer as inward investment falls and net migration of skilled Europeans tails off. Voters are blissfully unaware of the coming crunch. Just when they have signalled at the ballot box that they have had enough of austerity, they are about to face even harder times." Only really debatable in relation to a very long time hence, and whether the very real pain we are about to endure will have been worth it and the losses can be made up. I’m not saying the economy is in rude health but am I correct in saying that the Economist has generally been anti Brexit? Therefore could those statements be anti Brexit spin? I’ll stand corrected on that as I am not a regular reader and it is only an impression I have gained on glancing through the magazine. If it isn’t spin then perhaps the Conservatives should call another election quickly leading to a Corbyn government and then let Labour catch the fallout when the economy does hit the rocks? Said with tongue in cheek.
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jonno
Member of DD Central
nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Jun 10, 2017 12:53:08 GMT
You've made a lot of (inaccurate) assumptions about my background. It seems your modus operandi when faced with disagreement is to attribute it to stupidity, lack of knowledge, or a personality defect. It's quite obvious why poor people are more likely to vote Labour and the well off are more likely to vote Tory, but there'll always be people who convince themselves that their self-interest is actually good for everyone. I’ve made no assumptions whatsoever about your background, neither do I adopt the usual left wing smear tactics you appear to be using when you accuse me of condescension toward others. To further enhance my credentials for commenting on the working class, both of my parents were born and brought up in rented 1 up, 1 down back to back houses with outside toilets and 1 tap for cold running water surrounded by mills and other factories but by hard work and aspiration rather than blindly joining a trade union and being held back to suit socialist aims, they succeeded in improving their lot and bought their own house, only to be initially let down by myself who left grammar school at 15, nearly 16 with 3 O levels and no idea about a career. I started work on the factory floor at £5 per week in 1963, learned my trade and by changing employers advanced my career eventually becoming Production Director with one firm, all the while working with and eventually managing people from various backgrounds including a large Muslim workforce with one firm, much of which gave me exposure to unionised environments and a comprehensive insight into socialist views therefore I feel that I am well qualified to make observations, not judgements, on working class attitudes. You were lucky.......................................
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 13:06:12 GMT
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 13:15:02 GMT
Some analysis (google 2017 'how uk voted 7 charts' if it comes up paywall) www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89bTory increased their vote significantly amongst working class, far more than they did amongst middle class (BBC reports) and did better in Leave areas than Remain (surprise) Turnout is big factor in this as both main parties increased their number of votes overall. Rise of youth vote for Labour has offset rise in ex-UKIP to Tories. BBC analysis at 06:00 9 June showed Labour picking up more of the UKIP vote than the Conservatives. False news and / or spin? 
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 13:16:33 GMT
So, we end up with emasculated government that won't be able to decide anything. Any bets on how long May will last? My prediction is 3 months. No more than 3-4 months, another election in October.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 10, 2017 13:20:32 GMT
Quite right, but i'm not sure the young-en's are taking any notice, we have been and are still in a period of austerity paying of Blair and brown's incompetence, but the young cannot seem to see past reckless left wing promise's that will leave them and their kids skint. I sincerely hope Theresa May does exactly the same as Cameron, when he jumped in bed with the liberals, and see out the full five years and get the job done, no matter what the opposition and press say or predict.
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 13:33:06 GMT
Quite right, but i'm not sure the young-en's are taking any notice, we have been and are still in a period of austerity paying of Blair and brown's incompetence, but the young cannot seem to see past reckless left wing promise's that will leave them and their kids skint. I sincerely hope Theresa May does exactly the same as Cameron, when he jumped in bed with the liberals, and see out the full five years and get the job done, no matter what the opposition and press say or predict. I agree with you about seeing out the full five years but without a formal coalition agreement I’m doubtful it could happen plus I believe that the knives will soon be out in the Conservative party hence my post forecasting an October election.
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registerme
Member of DD Central
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Post by registerme on Jun 10, 2017 13:37:26 GMT
I’m not saying the economy is in rude health but am I correct in saying that the Economist has generally been anti Brexit? Therefore could those statements be anti Brexit spin? I’ll stand corrected on that as I am not a regular reader and it is only an impression I have gained on glancing through the magazine. Yes, The Economist was pro-remain / anti-Brexit, but from an "on balance the risks, rewards, costs, benefits, and opportunities suggest that staying in the EU is the better option" position than a "rah rah the EU is great" one. It really, really doesn't do spin. I don't think there's a better source of news and analysis available in the UK. One of the things I admire about it is their speed when it comes to correcting things, and apologising for things where necessary. That, as far as I can tell, is unique. Certainly politicians of all stripes could learn a thing or two from their approach to that. I'm 100% atheist, the only thing I am messianic about is the value of reading The Economist  .
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Post by yorkshireman on Jun 10, 2017 13:42:23 GMT
I’m not saying the economy is in rude health but am I correct in saying that the Economist has generally been anti Brexit? Therefore could those statements be anti Brexit spin? I’ll stand corrected on that as I am not a regular reader and it is only an impression I have gained on glancing through the magazine. Yes, The Economist was pro-remain / anti-Brexit, but from an "on balance the risks, rewards, costs, benefits, and opportunities suggest that staying in the EU is the better option" position than a "rah rah the EU is great" one. It really, really doesn't do spin. I don't think there's a better source of news and analysis available in the UK. One of the things I admire about it is their speed when it comes to correcting things, and apologising for things where necessary. That, as far as I can tell, is unique. Certainly politicians of all stripes could learn a thing or two from their approach to that. I'm 100% atheist, the only thing I am messianic about is the value of reading The Economist . Perhaps I should give it a try then!
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