travolta
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Post by travolta on Jul 12, 2022 20:12:27 GMT
Awful lot . I think I'll sell my vote. But if you have to make a choice, who would you go for? I am genuinely interested. I'll go for Kemi. She has the ability to speak ,chin up ,no notes and deliver . The're all on a hiding to nothing unless they can shake out the Civil Service manderins .
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Jul 12, 2022 20:28:43 GMT
PR means coalition government. Parties know this and they know that whatever promises they make in their manifesto they will not be held to account so promise the earth. Following the election the parties bargain with one another until a joint manifesto is produced. Not one single voter voted for the package of measures agreed. Not very democratic. I agree in principle with bringing government closer to the people, but it has not worked so well in the USA with abortion. There are big differences in the laws of the 4 nations of the UK which cause discontent eg Scottish students get free university education.
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 12, 2022 22:22:42 GMT
interesting from Betfairs exchange odds to be next PM 3/1 John Bercow 4/1 Jo Swinson 100/1 Keir Starmer 50/1 Caroline Lucas 3/1 Ian Blackford Honestly some of these people should not be allowed to place a bet Anyone who thinks Greens More Likely than Labour is deluded and the same applies to the SNP Those odds (for those oddballs ) make zero sense. We sure about them? They are basically try-ons by other punters. Betfair Exchange odds aren't set by a bookmaker, but by other punters (hence the "exchange"). Taking Bercow as an example, basically some chancer has said he's ready to pay you £6 in the unlikely event Bercow should become next PM and is happy to take your £2 stake off you otherwise (£2 is the minimum stake). There will be a few mugs logged-on who might fall for it, but most are more sensible. It's tantamount to sellers on eBay offering an item for £1000, when you can buy it normally for £10 in the shops. There's nothing to prevent the chancers trying it on like that. A good guide to whether the "book" is fair is to inspect the two percentages listed above the odds table, on the left and right. The closer the gulf between 'backers' and 'layers', the nearer to a figure of 100% these percentages become. If you see a book with 100.5% on one side and 99.5% on the other, both sides have met in the middle and the book is fair. The chancers have been frozen out. In the case highlighted by keitha, the percentages displayed were closer to 120% on one side and 80% on the other, which warns you straightaway that some people are trying it on and offering silly odds which don't reflect your risk. They are hoping for some mug to take their silly wager.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 13, 2022 7:32:00 GMT
In a PR system, the PM usually emerges from the largest party in the coalition. But they don't carry the enormously centralised power that the UK PM has when their party has a solid majority (strong local and regional governments being a feature of those countries). This current process is more like a coronation than a democratic process. I wouldn't mind, but setting aside the ability of the ruling party to do practically anything they like in their 5 years, unrestrained by the powerless 'official opposition', I think the UK parliamentary set-up is inefficient in carrying into law the wishes of the majority of people on hundreds of different issues. If you look at the Private Member's Bills, you see a system set up that is capable of working as these do tend to focus on specific issues that manifestly need parliamentary attention, but it is also conventional now that these are rejected no matter how much merit they have. I would also point as an example to assisted dying, something granted to your dog but not to you. Public opinion overwhelmingly accepts it. The surrounding like-minded democracys all have strictly supervised legal systems for helping people end their lives providing examples of well regulated systems that protect the vulnerable but due to parliamentary stymie, our citizens are still forced ontoc a plane to Switzerland. I agree with you about pets having more rights in that regard. I also think PR of some sort is a good idea. However, PR doesn't solve the issue of members of parties having a disproportionate amount of electoral power.On the face of it, very true. But its kinda of a problem with most party based democratic systems. Since by definition its almost inevitable that it will be party members that elect their leader, and party members will be 'activists' of some form. They typically aren't a representative sample of their wider support base. Just look at the tendency of US Primaries to result in selection of candidates who sit towards the respective extreme wings of their parties. However, I would say its a greater problem in electoral systems with a very small number of parties operating in a 'winner takes all' style of election. Taking the UK as an example, it doesn't matter how awful someone might think Boris Johnson was, if they are a conservative supporter at heart, and he was up against a Corbyn, then many of them will carry on voting for their local conservative while suffering indigestion in the process. Where 'some form of PR' can help in terms of affecting party leadership choices. I think, is that it leads to more fragmentation and a greater choice of parties with more nuances of policy. In that sense it offers a less black and white set of choices, and therefore a greater need for serious parties to select candidates that appeal more broadly. Yes I know that politics in France isn't necessarily a great poster child for that.....
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 13, 2022 7:43:19 GMT
I'm not wedded to PR as an absolute necessity for the UK I can see it both ways... On the one hand, FPTP means that every single constituency has the single most locally popular MP. On the other, 43.5% of the votes brings 56% of the seats and absolute control of government, 4% of votes brings 7.5% of seats and regional dominance, while 11.5% of votes brings 1.5% of seats and utter irrelevance. At the last election, only 10% of seats nationally had a majority vulnerable to a realistic voting swing - the other 90% basically do not count for much nationally. That could be done under the present system - IF there was the political will. However, since a large proportion of the electorate simply do not understand how our tiers of government work, there are no votes to be gained from any kind of meaningful reform. PR means coalition government. Is that a bad thing? I'd suggest that our only recent experience of coalition was exactly what the country needed at the time, and I think history will view it as one of the better periods of government we've had in modern times. It works very well in many other countries, of course - but we seem to delight in our peculiarly adversarial and combative politics, instead of mature cooperation.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 13, 2022 8:11:28 GMT
On the one hand, FPTP means that every single constituency has the single most locally popular MP. ...or, at least, somebody wearing the single most locally popular colour of ribbon...
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Jul 13, 2022 9:54:11 GMT
PR means coalition government. Is that a bad thing? I'd suggest that our only recent experience of coalition was exactly what the country needed at the time. And I would suggest that it was a disaster, so it seems it's a matter of opinion. I respect your right to yours, I don't know how you feel.
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Brainer
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Post by Brainer on Jul 13, 2022 13:23:40 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 13, 2022 13:45:47 GMT
Must admit I don't much like Penny so far. Her "slick" promo was awful I thought - she only spoke about 5 words at the end of it. Reading between the lines she wants to trim down the state even more with little provision for the ill/unemployed/disabled etc. In summary, she seems to want to return to Tory roots which are essentially there for the upper classes.
Still, I'm glad the BBC's constant pushing of Jeremy Hunt over the past few months has gone absolutely nowhere. The Tory membership would never forgive his wanting a second referendum. (IMO voting Remain is absolutely fine in itself).
Don't like Sunak at all due to him clearly disposing of Johnson for his own gain.
Don't like any of them really.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jul 13, 2022 14:00:25 GMT
Don't like any of them really. What do you make of their policies?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 14:42:28 GMT
I've never met any of them (I used to know the older people as friends) so I don't know if I like any of the 8 at all.
I'd think it would be more interesting to ask if I believe they would make a good prime minister but what do I know
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 13, 2022 14:58:25 GMT
Must admit I don't much like Penny so far. Her "slick" promo was awful I thought - she only spoke about 5 words at the end of it. Reading between the lines she wants to trim down the state even more with little provision for the ill/unemployed/disabled etc. In summary, she seems to want to return to Tory roots which are essentially there for the upper classes. Still, I'm glad the BBC's constant pushing of Jeremy Hunt over the past few months has gone absolutely nowhere. The Tory membership would never forgive his wanting a second referendum. (IMO voting Remain is absolutely fine in itself). Don't like Sunak at all due to him clearly disposing of Johnson for his own gain. Don't like any of them really. michaelc did you want Johnson to stay or go ?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 13, 2022 15:03:25 GMT
...the BBC's constant pushing of Jeremy Hunt over the past few months... The what? I must have missed that completely... I don't even recall his name being mentioned on R4 for ages. Anyway, Braverman is living up to her name. "Attorney General Suella Braverman has said none of her competitors "took a stance" against former Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal. Braverman tells the BBC that when things were "incredibly pressured" she was the only candidate who resigned from her ministerial role in protest over the plan."Definitely brave to revise history like that - she's the one working hardest to bin the NI Protocol, which is the ONLY difference between Johnson's "oven-ready" deal (which she backed) and May's. She dug the "vassal state" line out, too. (Didn't anybody tell her that JRM's backing Truss?)
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jo
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Post by jo on Jul 13, 2022 15:04:03 GMT
Wonder if the next administraion (or whatever you want to call it), will be a liberal as the previous.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jul 13, 2022 15:04:26 GMT
Don't like any of them really. What do you make of their policies? I did say something about what Penny might do. None of them have well defined policies yet but I believe we are voting for their approach to policy rather than detailed policy at this stage. Their overall approach is unlikely to change and it is that which will guide policy going forwards. In particular, Penny and several others don't seem to give two hoots to the working class north. They will certainly lose the red wall and quite possibly the next election. BB: I'm on the fence about Boris but probably slightly in favour of keeping him for now. Irrelevant now of course.
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