registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 14, 2022 22:26:56 GMT
Italy has a more stable government than we do. I haven't checked but I wouldn't be surprised if their bonds weren't trading better than ours. Correct. (For the 5-year term at least.) I can't bring myself to "like" that post, but thank you.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 14, 2022 23:39:10 GMT
Dear gawd, no. Just because Trussticle rates 11/10 on the incompetence scale doesn't mean a mere 9/10 should be exhumed... To some extent this a joke. but really I think Boris would be so much better. At least he has some character. It's the ol' Rumsfeld quadrant. But with charisma and competence as the two axes. We were deep into charismatic-incompetence with BJ Piffle. Now, we're further down the competence axis, but we've twanged FAR over to the other side of the charisma one. I'm quite happy with us being this side of charisma... but I'd really, really like to be the other side of competence. Please? Recent PMs... I s'pose I could draw a chart, but I CBA. May - roughly central. Cameron - mildly charismatic-competent. Brown - mildly uncharismatic, probably vaguely centric on competence. Well, OK. Down a bit. Blair - fairly high on charisma, broadly mid-range competence. Major - low charisma, broadly competent. Thatcher - charismatic, but can we split into early and late?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2022 7:19:06 GMT
Surely, after this fiasco the Conservative Party has to change its leadership selection process. I'm all for having a laugh but the last 4 weeks cost me serious money.
On a different note, the fundementals of the UK, low productivity, low skill levels, financially illiterate, numerically illiterate and illiterate, remains the same and when (if) Labour come to power they have no solutions to these either.
We tried Education education education, the SNP tried to improve education and are failing hands down all very worrying.
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Post by overthehill on Oct 15, 2022 9:20:49 GMT
Yes Rishi will still want the top job. He is a massively ambitious tryhard and will now relish it even more that he's been proven correct. Maybe he'll chuck a sickie for couple of days and make the party beg for him (as I would haha). I always felt he was viewed unfavourably because he had an independently wealthy wife (as well as his face "not fitting") but anyway, his time is now and the sooner he gets on with cleaning up this mess the better.
Do the Conservatives believe Sunak is a future election winner? A multi-millionaire non-dom wife paying no UK tax and NI but quite happy to use 999 for all her free services. Is she still promising to switch her tax status or was that binned when Sunak lost?
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captainconfident
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Post by captainconfident on Oct 15, 2022 9:49:31 GMT
What has happened here is that Brexit pulled the Tory party in two directions. In one, the the Red Wall MPs essentially won with Farage/Brexit Party messaging - Close the borders. Back to the 50's. Who needs trade we can make it ourselves, look after our own. Down the pub for a singsong.
Meanwhile the Neo-Liberals, who since Thatcher believed in a diametrically opposed credo of free trade, open borders, cut benefits and force recipients to work, no time for the pub because it's dog eat dog as described in 'Britannia Unchained', sailed on the tide of Brexit, with which they did not entirely agree (as it blocked a key element of free trade, restricted immigration needed to grow the economy), as a route to power. Hence Truss was anti-Brexit for ideological reasons, but could harness the result to advance a cause to whiich half of her party is politically opposed.
In Truss we see the truimph of Neo-Liberalism, and its political destruction all in 30 odd days. It would be very interesting to know what Kwasi Kwarteng would have come up with on 31st October. I believe we would have seen the necessary neo-liberal prescriptions for 'growth' as prescribed by Britannia Unchained, and these would have been boosting (non-EU) immigration and massive cuts in benefits to the low paid, inspiring them to 'go and get a better job', as some neo-con MP suggested recently.
But I don't think we will see neo-liberalism again for many decades. The Britannia Unchained-gang will be given peerages and booted upstairs. The Red Wall MPs will either jump ship to Labour in the next couple of weeks, or regain control of the party and guide it in a more one-nation direction.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 15, 2022 10:05:47 GMT
Do the Conservatives believe Sunak is a future election winner? Well, obvs no - since the party members clearly thought Truss had a better chance at that, just two months ago... But they might be rethinking that at the moment. Of the two? Yes, Sunak was always the infinitely more likely to win the next election. Of all the candidates that stood? Perhaps, perhaps not. None of them were terribly appealing to my non-blue-ribbon brain, Mordaunt and Tugendhat least toxic.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 15, 2022 10:06:22 GMT
What has happened here is that Brexit pulled the Tory party in two directions. The followers of one of those directions got expunged in September 2019.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 15, 2022 10:42:13 GMT
What has happened here is that Brexit pulled the Tory party in two directions. The followers of one of those directions got expunged in September 2019. for me the 2 main parties are both split. The Conservatives into the Truss supporting, very right wing hard brexit, more than a touch racist, help the rich, punish the poor, and the more centrist side ie the centrist, non racist, I want brexit, lets help those that need help and penalise those who want to scrounge. Labour into the momentum led, anti zionist, tax the rich till the pips squeak, let's give all pensioners £400 a week, and the centrist side who can see that taxes at too high a level will cause people to move abroad, but do want to help those on benefits and those in poorly paid jobs and the just about managing. personally I see only relatively minor differences between the centrist parts of the 2 parties and I can see the possibility of a new centrist party being formed. which I for one would support.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 15, 2022 11:53:31 GMT
The followers of one of those directions got expunged in September 2019. for me the 2 main parties are both split. The Conservatives into the Truss supporting, very right wing hard brexit, more than a touch racist, help the rich, punish the poor, and the more centrist side ie the centrist, non racist, I want brexit, lets help those that need help and penalise those who want to scrounge. Yup. Mind you, that's applied pretty much since the 80s - at least up until the period from 2016 to 2019, when the kippers gradually took over, leading up to the purge. Again, pretty much constant - first it was Foot, then Militant and Hatton, then Momentum and Corbyn. (It does make you wonder how anybody not actively sociopathic could actually argue against that description of the centrist side, doesn't it?)Gawd, it'd be nice, wouldn't it? Yet the LDs seem determined to marginalise themselves into ever deeper irrelevance.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 15, 2022 11:55:54 GMT
The followers of one of those directions got expunged in September 2019. for me the 2 main parties are both split. The Conservatives into the Truss supporting, very right wing hard brexit, more than a touch racist, help the rich, punish the poor, and the more centrist side ie the centrist, non racist, I want brexit, lets help those that need help and penalise those who want to scrounge. Labour into the momentum led, anti zionist, tax the rich till the pips squeak, let's give all pensioners £400 a week, and the centrist side who can see that taxes at too high a level will cause people to move abroad, but do want to help those on benefits and those in poorly paid jobs and the just about managing. personally I see only relatively minor differences between the centrist parts of the 2 parties a nd I can see the possibility of a new centrist party being formed. which I for one would support.
good luck with that (he says with a considerable degree of sadness). Our FPTP system makes it extremely difficult for new parties to emerge. You have to go back what, 100 years to when the last successful upheaval in the dominant parties happened, when Labour took over from the Liberals as the second of the two parties. Some of us thought/hoped that the emergence of the SDP would be more than transient, but it wasn't, or that the Lib Dems might eventually get entrenched as a serious challenger at all GEs. There was a time when it was thought that the divisions over Brexit would lead to a permanent reshuffle, but it didn't. I honestly don't think we will see a new centrist party emerge unless we move away from the pure FPTP system we have today. There is just far too much disincentive to be anything other than in one or other of the main party camps. That doesn't mean the incumbent parties doesn't undergo an internal shift to become more centrist, as has happened from time to time over the years.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 15, 2022 13:57:07 GMT
I don't see our politics as a left to right line more as a clock face with the centre at 6 labour on the low side and the tories on the high, I personally think that the party that holds 6 wins as it's where the man in the street sits. I think in 2019 the Torys took 6 and possibly 5 because Corbyn was seen as being near 1 maybe 2, and Boris was probably 8, whereas now Starmer is 4 pushing towards 5 and Truss is 11. In all honesty and as a lifelong Conservative voter I can't vote for Truss, and had it been Truss V Corbyn in 2019 I'd not have voted for them. Also being honest as adrianc says "they don't count votes here they weigh them" partially it's a mindset ( I'm on benefits, or work therefore must vote Labour, or my dad voted labour and so did his dad and if right for them ... ) and it doesn't matter how much they mess up (Look at NHS in Wales) they all put the cross in the box.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 15, 2022 14:13:52 GMT
I don't see our politics as a left to right line more as a clock face with the centre at 6 labour on the low side and the tories on the high, I personally think that the party that holds 6 wins as it's where the man in the street sits. I think in 2019 the Torys took 6 and possibly 5 because Corbyn was seen as being near 1 maybe 2, and Boris was probably 8, whereas now Starmer is 4 pushing towards 5 and Truss is 11. In all honesty and as a lifelong Conservative voter I can't vote for Truss, and had it been Truss V Corbyn in 2019 I'd not have voted for them. Also being honest as adrianc says "they don't count votes here they weigh them" partially it's a mindset ( I'm on benefits, or work therefore must vote Labour, or my dad voted labour and so did his dad and if right for them ... ) and it doesn't matter how much they mess up (Look at NHS in Wales) they all put the cross in the box. It's pretty much the same in the majority of constituencies and that is at the heart of the problem of FPTP*. Our local council has an overwhelming Conservative majority and has done since time immemorial. I struggle to think that is healthy. I think until recently it only had one or 2 councillors of the 'opposite' persuasion (I might have this wrong) but barely matters since even now it has a total of 4+1 out of >40. There was no way I could bring myself to vote for BJ at the last election, and not a chance I'd vote for Truss (or Patel or Suellerman or some others of similar persuasion that might be successor candidates) at the next. And no, that is not a misogynistic based prejudice before someone jumps up and suggests so. *No electoral system is perfect, they all have some flaws, and even whether those are flaws depends on one's outlook. But it's a brave person who doesn't think there is something a bit knackered, unrepresentative and disenfranchising about the system we currently have.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 15, 2022 14:47:23 GMT
I don't see our politics as a left to right line more as a clock face with the centre at 6 labour on the low side and the tories on the high, I personally think that the party that holds 6 wins as it's where the man in the street sits. I think in 2019 the Torys took 6 and possibly 5 because Corbyn was seen as being near 1 maybe 2, and Boris was probably 8, whereas now Starmer is 4 pushing towards 5 and Truss is 11. In all honesty and as a lifelong Conservative voter I can't vote for Truss, and had it been Truss V Corbyn in 2019 I'd not have voted for them. Also being honest as adrianc says "they don't count votes here they weigh them" partially it's a mindset ( I'm on benefits, or work therefore must vote Labour, or my dad voted labour and so did his dad and if right for them ... ) and it doesn't matter how much they mess up (Look at NHS in Wales) they all put the cross in the box. It's pretty much the same in the majority of constituencies and that is at the heart of the problem of FPTP*. Our local council has an overwhelming Conservative majority and has done since time immemorial. I struggle to think that is healthy. I think until recently it only had one or 2 councillors of the 'opposite' persuasion (I might have this wrong) but barely matters since even now it has a total of 4+1 out of >40. There was no way I could bring myself to vote for BJ at the last election, and not a chance I'd vote for Truss (or Patel or Suellerman or some others of similar persuasion that might be successor candidates) at the next. And no, that is not a misogynistic based prejudice before someone jumps up and suggests so. *No electoral system is perfect, they all have some flaws, and even whether those are flaws depends on one's outlook. But it's a brave person who doesn't think there is something a bit knackered, unrepresentative and disenfranchising about the system we currently have. I don't know the suggestion from Labour a plaid in Wales sounds like a Nightmare, an orwellian nightmare of PR crossed with Equality it is based on closed lists so even if the top Tory is unpopular even within their own party is likely to get in. But as it was explained to me. Using the D'Hondt System lets say Labour get most Votes So male X is in Lib Dems Come second so their first candidate gets in, ah but he's Male so the first Female on their list gets in Labour now gets another seat and again it's a man Conservatives win and the first woman on their list gets in it's designed to produce a Senedd with equal representation, but seems to me to be taking choice away from the public.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 15, 2022 15:06:57 GMT
Do the Conservatives believe Sunak is a future election winner? Well, obvs no - since the party members clearly thought Truss had a better chance at that, just two months ago... But they might be rethinking that at the moment. Of the two? Yes, Sunak was always the infinitely more likely to win the next election. Of all the candidates that stood? Perhaps, perhaps not. None of them were terribly appealing to my non-blue-ribbon brain, Mordaunt and Tugendhat least toxic. I think race played a far bigger part than either you or I would expect. I would go so far as to say had Rishi been white, he'd have won hands down. having worked for years with Councillors, I would say my perception was the Conservatives were a bit like the traditional London clubs very old fashioned, tweed and brogue wearing usually wealthy farmers or business owners, who treated the council employees badly. Labour were often big union men who were primarily interested in climbing the pole and would stab each other in the back, and often treated staff worse than the Tories. Lib Dems were invariably polite and treated staff well but had little perception of the real world. Independants, worst of the bunch totally unrealistic expectations, expected staff to be at their beck and call 24/7 Greens, anything but always wanting the latest tech to replace what they had even though it was more than adequate. in my experience destroyed more IT kit than the others
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 15, 2022 15:08:26 GMT
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