michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,741 
Likes: 2,996
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Nov 24, 2022 20:09:33 GMT
They are 5 years old so nothing but that isn't the point. It is about the fact that no matter what terrible things I were to do, I could never lose my citizenship (unless I were to acquire another passport) but other people apparently can. I thought you understood that but clearly not....
|
|
ozboy
Member of DD Central
Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
Posts: 3,168
Likes: 4,859
|
Post by ozboy on Nov 24, 2022 20:12:19 GMT
One thing that makes me object to her returning to this country is that she will instantly become a celebrity and every journalist, TV chat show anchor will be begging to interview her. Not to mention all the human rights lawyers and other do gooders wanting to cash in or score points. Yep, pure evil gets rewarded. You couldn't make it up could you. Funny ole word innit?
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,067
Likes: 5,176
Member is Online
|
Post by adrianc on Nov 24, 2022 20:28:05 GMT
It is about the fact that no matter what terrible things I were to do, I could never lose my citizenship (unless I were to acquire another passport) I do, thanks. I'm just trying to put the risk into proportion for you... It's not something that will ever happen on a whim, or because of a parking ticket... It's very simple. Nobody can be left stateless. Everybody in the world should have nationality from one recognised country - any additional countries on top of that? Nice-to-have. www.unhcr.org/uk/un-conventions-on-statelessness.htmlYou have dual nationality? Then you can lose one. The two do not take any priority - they are equal, no matter which you've spent more time in. Your country/ies of nationality cannot refuse you entry or deport you. Any and every other country can.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,741
Likes: 2,996
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Nov 24, 2022 20:56:49 GMT
It is about the fact that no matter what terrible things I were to do, I could never lose my citizenship (unless I were to acquire another passport) I do, thanks. I'm just trying to put the risk into proportion for you... It's not something that will ever happen on a whim, or because of a parking ticket... It's very simple. Nobody can be left stateless. Everybody in the world should have nationality from one recognised country - any additional countries on top of that? Nice-to-have. www.unhcr.org/uk/un-conventions-on-statelessness.htmlYou have dual nationality? Then you can lose one. The two do not take any priority - they are equal, no matter which you've spent more time in.Your country/ies of nationality cannot refuse you entry or deport you. Any and every other country can. And that I suggest is a problem particularly for those who didn't ask for an "extra" passport. Lets consider the dual-nationality child of a German and UK parents living only in one country (say the UK ). They haven't chosen to have that German passport, they may never have had any recollection of being in Germany, may not speak German at all, may not know anybody there or anything about Germany, they may not even know of the German passports existence and yet could lose their British citizenship having essentially zero connection with Germany. So why is it possible (however small that possibility is) of them being stripped of their UK citizenship when the probability of their own single nationality British parent being stripped of said nationality is precisely zero?
|
|
daveb
Member of DD Central
Posts: 253
Likes: 210
|
Post by daveb on Nov 24, 2022 21:27:38 GMT
I think since she has British and no other nationality at present, if she turns up in the UK she should be arrested, tried, and probably imprisoned for a long time. We can't remove her nationality just because we don't like what she's done.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,067
Likes: 5,176
Member is Online
|
Post by adrianc on Nov 25, 2022 0:21:57 GMT
And that I suggest is a problem particularly for those who didn't ask for an "extra" passport. Nobody is born with dual nationality, it's applied for. If not by them, by their parents. Their parents chose to apply for that on their behalf. Can't do the time? Don't do the crime.
|
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Nov 25, 2022 2:33:39 GMT
I do, thanks. I'm just trying to put the risk into proportion for you... It's not something that will ever happen on a whim, or because of a parking ticket... It's very simple. Nobody can be left stateless. Everybody in the world should have nationality from one recognised country - any additional countries on top of that? Nice-to-have. www.unhcr.org/uk/un-conventions-on-statelessness.htmlYou have dual nationality? Then you can lose one. The two do not take any priority - they are equal, no matter which you've spent more time in.Your country/ies of nationality cannot refuse you entry or deport you. Any and every other country can. And that I suggest is a problem particularly for those who didn't ask for an "extra" passport. Lets consider the dual-nationality child of a German and UK parents living only in one country (say the UK ). They haven't chosen to have that German passport, they may never have had any recollection of being in Germany, may not speak German at all, may not know anybody there or anything about Germany, they may not even know of the German passports existence and yet could lose their British citizenship having essentially zero connection with Germany. So why is it possible (however small that possibility is) of them being stripped of their UK citizenship when the probability of their own single nationality British parent being stripped of said nationality is precisely zero? It's of fleeting academic interest, but as adrianc has outlined, your kids would have to do something monumentally off the scale to ever be stripped of their UK citizenship. The odds are vanishingly small and you probably have bigger fish to fry than worry any further along these lines. Teach them right from wrong, as I'm sure you are doing, and it should all be plain sailing. If this ever becomes a genuine concern, it is possible for your children to renounce their Ukrainian nationality when they are old enough, thereby conferring the same immutable UK citizenship that you currently enjoy. It would seem an odd thing to do, nevertheless it's an option for those concerned they might be about to fly off the rails sufficiently to jeopardise their UK citizenship. So, for all practical purposes, your children aren't really any worse off than you are, and the power to change their status lies in their hands if they ever want to exercise it. I'm certainly not recommending it, but Ukraine surprisingly allows a parent to renounce even young children's Ukrainian nationality on their behalf, provided certain conditions are met. justicon.ua/en/service/prekrasenie-grazdanstva-ukrainy.htmlIt's therefore difficult to see in any practical sense any way in which your children are disadvantaged here.
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 1,862
|
Post by littleoldlady on Nov 25, 2022 8:58:12 GMT
I would have more sympathy for the Kurdish group stuck with her if it were not for the number of illegal Kurdish immigrants.
|
|
mrk
Posts: 807
Likes: 753
|
Post by mrk on Nov 25, 2022 10:30:39 GMT
I would have more sympathy for the Kurdish group stuck with her if it were not for the number of illegal Kurdish immigrants. Of course, asylum seekers should just follow the clear instructions provided by the Home Secretary...
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,741
Likes: 2,996
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Nov 25, 2022 13:33:51 GMT
And that I suggest is a problem particularly for those who didn't ask for an "extra" passport. Lets consider the dual-nationality child of a German and UK parents living only in one country (say the UK ). They haven't chosen to have that German passport, they may never have had any recollection of being in Germany, may not speak German at all, may not know anybody there or anything about Germany, they may not even know of the German passports existence and yet could lose their British citizenship having essentially zero connection with Germany. So why is it possible (however small that possibility is) of them being stripped of their UK citizenship when the probability of their own single nationality British parent being stripped of said nationality is precisely zero? It's of fleeting academic interest, but as adrianc has outlined, your kids would have to do something monumentally off the scale to ever be stripped of their UK citizenship. The odds are vanishingly small and you probably have bigger fish to fry than worry any further along these lines. Teach them right from wrong, as I'm sure you are doing, and it should all be plain sailing. If this ever becomes a genuine concern, it is possible for your children to renounce their Ukrainian nationality when they are old enough, thereby conferring the same immutable UK citizenship that you currently enjoy. It would seem an odd thing to do, nevertheless it's an option for those concerned they might be about to fly off the rails sufficiently to jeopardise their UK citizenship. So, for all practical purposes, your children aren't really any worse off than you are, and the power to change their status lies in their hands if they ever want to exercise it. I'm certainly not recommending it, but Ukraine surprisingly allows a parent to renounce even young children's Ukrainian nationality on their behalf, provided certain conditions are met. justicon.ua/en/service/prekrasenie-grazdanstva-ukrainy.htmlIt's therefore difficult to see in any practical sense any way in which your children are disadvantaged here. Yes but with the greatest of respect despite me raising at least two examples, one of which you mentioned here but not the latest one I raised, its about the possibility of some non-naturalised British people have greater rights than others and having a punishment last used in the 18th century. Since we have such a policy, it means _someone_ and probably a few dozen or more will be impacted by these rules. However vanishingly small the probability is, we shouldn't have a situation where two British people have lived here all their lives but one is at (very slightly) more risk than the other of being deported to (for them) an unknown land. This was a punishment in the 18th centaury where convicts were shipped to Botany Bay in Australia.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 4,610
Likes: 2,634
|
Post by keitha on Nov 25, 2022 15:28:12 GMT
Yes but with the greatest of respect despite me raising at least two examples, one of which you mentioned here but not the latest one I raised, its about the possibility of some non-naturalised British people have greater rights than others and having a punishment last used in the 18th century. Since we have such a policy, it means _someone_ and probably a few dozen or more will be impacted by these rules. However vanishingly small the probability is, we shouldn't have a situation where two British people have lived here all their lives but one is at (very slightly) more risk than the other of being deported to (for them) an unknown land. This was a punishment in the 18th centaury where convicts were shipped to Botany Bay in Australia. But this happens all the time in normal criminal cases as an example get caught dealing small amounts of drugs in London or Manchester and get a warning, in Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire or Yorkshire you are likely to be sent to jail for the same offence. I personally know someone who was on probation and got caught stealing a mars bar and did 6 weeks in prison. How many Celebrities lose their driving licence for even fairly serious offences, and what happens when they get caught driving whilst banned. Bog all usually, yet most of us would do time.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Say No To T.D.S.
Posts: 5,741
Likes: 2,996
Member is Online
|
Post by michaelc on Nov 25, 2022 16:08:59 GMT
Yes but with the greatest of respect despite me raising at least two examples, one of which you mentioned here but not the latest one I raised, its about the possibility of some non-naturalised British people have greater rights than others and having a punishment last used in the 18th century. Since we have such a policy, it means _someone_ and probably a few dozen or more will be impacted by these rules. However vanishingly small the probability is, we shouldn't have a situation where two British people have lived here all their lives but one is at (very slightly) more risk than the other of being deported to (for them) an unknown land. This was a punishment in the 18th centaury where convicts were shipped to Botany Bay in Australia. But this happens all the time in normal criminal cases as an example get caught dealing small amounts of drugs in London or Manchester and get a warning, in Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire or Yorkshire you are likely to be sent to jail for the same offence. I personally know someone who was on probation and got caught stealing a mars bar and did 6 weeks in prison. How many Celebrities lose their driving licence for even fairly serious offences, and what happens when they get caught driving whilst banned. Bog all usually, yet most of us would do time. That is actually a good point and I accept that. But don't you think there is something even more fundamental about what it means to be British and knowing no matter what you do you will never lose that because it is what you are and not what you've done.
|
|
littleoldlady
Member of DD Central
Running down all platforms due to age
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 1,862
|
Post by littleoldlady on Nov 25, 2022 16:30:10 GMT
Lets consider the dual-nationality child of a German and UK parents living only in one country (say the UK ). They haven't chosen to have that German passport, they may never have had any recollection of being in Germany, may not speak German at all, may not know anybody there or anything about Germany, they may not even know of the German passports existence and yet could lose their British citizenship having essentially zero connection with Germany. So why is it possible (however small that possibility is) of them being stripped of their UK citizenship when the probability of their own single nationality British parent being stripped of said nationality is precisely zero? Say you have two people who have actively plotted to destroy the UK state and have carried out terrorist acts and then fled the country and cannot be arrested. One of them (A) has dual citizenship and the other (B) has not. You appear to be saying that because B cannot be stripped of his citizenship which would make him stateless, then neither can A even though he would still have citizenship of a country. If this logic was applied generally it would cause chaos in the judicial system. I have used the male pronouns for convenience only.
|
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Nov 25, 2022 17:37:34 GMT
It's of fleeting academic interest, but as adrianc has outlined, your kids would have to do something monumentally off the scale to ever be stripped of their UK citizenship. The odds are vanishingly small and you probably have bigger fish to fry than worry any further along these lines. Teach them right from wrong, as I'm sure you are doing, and it should all be plain sailing. If this ever becomes a genuine concern, it is possible for your children to renounce their Ukrainian nationality when they are old enough, thereby conferring the same immutable UK citizenship that you currently enjoy. It would seem an odd thing to do, nevertheless it's an option for those concerned they might be about to fly off the rails sufficiently to jeopardise their UK citizenship. So, for all practical purposes, your children aren't really any worse off than you are, and the power to change their status lies in their hands if they ever want to exercise it. I'm certainly not recommending it, but Ukraine surprisingly allows a parent to renounce even young children's Ukrainian nationality on their behalf, provided certain conditions are met. justicon.ua/en/service/prekrasenie-grazdanstva-ukrainy.htmlIt's therefore difficult to see in any practical sense any way in which your children are disadvantaged here. Yes but with the greatest of respect despite me raising at least two examples, one of which you mentioned here but not the latest one I raised, its about the possibility of some non-naturalised British people have greater rights than others and having a punishment last used in the 18th century. Since we have such a policy, it means _someone_ and probably a few dozen or more will be impacted by these rules. However vanishingly small the probability is, we shouldn't have a situation where two British people have lived here all their lives but one is at (very slightly) more risk than the other of being deported to (for them) an unknown land. This was a punishment in the 18th centaury where convicts were shipped to Botany Bay in Australia. Yes, nobody ever promised life would be 100% fair, but do bear in mind exactly what underlies that tiny risk you've highlighted. Only the most dangerous people will ever be impacted by it, with the Home Secretary carefully advised before deciding each case personally. There is also a right of appeal. Given how easy it is to avoid the risk, and how extremely wicked you'd have to be to fall foul of it, the system we have doesn't seem that unreasonable.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 10,067
Likes: 5,176
Member is Online
|
Post by adrianc on Nov 26, 2022 8:44:13 GMT
...a situation where two British people have lived here all their lives but one is at (very slightly) more risk than the other of being deported to (for them) an unknown land. And that's where, for me, the government's attitude to Begum becomes unacceptable. Nobody should have dual nationality with "(for them) an unknown land". Nobody should be deemed to hold a nationality just because they would probably be accepted if they applied, which they haven't done, because they have no links with that country other than jus sanguinis. There may also be ECHR issues, because the government would be complicit in her going to a certain execution.
|
|
