jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Apr 10, 2023 8:09:42 GMT
Nicola Sturgeon said "Judge me on my record on education"
and the size of my hidden camper van motorhome
there, fixed it for you Let it go bb.....let it go 
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 10, 2023 8:18:27 GMT
that's not normally how it works. On a coachwork build, (and indeed normally an A-Class) the vehicle weight that is talked about is the MGW - mass gross weight that the loaded vehicle must not exceed in its converted form (dictated by the base vehicle, taking into account any upgrades to e.g. suspension that may have been done). That ties into what people are licensed (or not licensed) to drive. Hence the focus on 3.5t as that is where driving license cut off is. If you are my age, then you have C1 class driving rights grandfathered in, allowing you to drive >3.5 < 7.5t. If you are younger, you won't by default. Hence the focus on 3.5t MGW, as below that means those without C1 can drive it. For a MoHo the unladen weight - or the inverse i.e. the spare weight available up to the MGW - is specified. It used to be (no idea whether still is) that allows for a standard specified amount of 'onboard' or laden weight: e.g. water tank full, 1x gas bottle , 2x people at some specified average weight, half grey water tank, other bits and pieces. The frequently little spare capacity that is left between that and the vehicle's MGW is often a surprise to people. Just as an example. Our 7m MoHo as originally built had an MGW of 3.5t (fitting the above model). Its unladen weight is of course less than that. And the original base vehicle on which it was based had a lower unladen (and I think possibly MGW) than that still. As it happens, ours had an after market suspension upgrade (prior to our ownership) to take it to 3.9t MGW. That probably is not far off doubling the available free load weight. The good news is that because we both have C1 on our driving license we can still drive it. I think if we didn't, we could probably downgrade its registration to 3.5t max - even if it is PHYSICALLY capable of going higher. And of course we can also load it up with more tins of beans than would otherwise be the case. And surprisingly the road tax is a bit less than it would be: at >3.5t it is classified as a 'Private HGV', with a lower road tax. On the flip side, if we were to take it to e.g. France (if we could ever get through Dover) we would have to pay extra to get a 'vignette'. Our 6m motorhome is limited to 3.5t MGW. We enjoy the same speed limits and lane usage as a car. One subtlety often overlooked by those keen to re-plate to a higher MGW is the reduced speed limits and (I believe) a restriction on using the third lane on the motorway (here and/or in Europe). Going above 3.5t means shaving 10mph off for certain roads. Plenty of unsuspecting van drivers have been pulled up by the law for this, so it's worth checking the rules that apply to your re-plated vehicle. I suspect you are restricted to 50/60 on single/dual carriageways, rather than the usual 60/70. You may also be barred from the motorway third lane, like an HGV, but don't quote me on that. Thanks, and it is always worth checking these things (though it is more difficult to do so than one might think....). I believe that in fact it is not impacted in terms of speed limits. For MoHo/Motor Caravans the speed limits are based on the max. unladen weight , not the MGW. So for Motorhomes and Motorcaravans the clip level is in fact 3.05 tonnes but that is max UNLADEN weight (source: current highway code). There is no link between max laden and speeds for MoHos. For goods vehicles, then it IS based on max laden weight. Of course the next question is whether it still counts as a MoHo/Motorcaravan. Online DVLA check doesn't in fact state anything about 'Private HGV', or Motorhome/MotorCaravan. It just states 'Revenue Weight' (which is the 3.9 tonne number). And this is where it gets "interesting" trying to tie the ends together. Speed limits are based on vehicle types such as Motorhome/Motorcaravan (up to 3.05 unladen, over 3.05 unladen), car/Motorcycles, Goods Vehicle (up to 7.5 tonnes Laden) etc. But DVLA tax classes do not have a 1 to 1 match. For example, there is no mention of 'Motorhome/Motorcaravan' in VED tax classes at all. There are however Private/Light Goods vehicle (up to 3.5 tonne MGW) and Private/Heavy Goods Vehicle (>3.5t MGW). So a 'standard' MoHo built on e.g. Renault Master <3.5t vehicle base is a Private Light Goods Vehicle for VED purposes, and one which is rated to 3.9t is a Private/Heavy Goods vehicle. So far so good. But because they are 'Private', they must also only ever be driven 'unladen' (by definition). If you were to strip the coachwork away and put a goods body back on it, then it would have to be reclassified as a Light or Heavy Goods vehicle as appropriate (without the 'Private'). So now coming back to National Speed limits. As noted, they have categories of MoHo/MoCaravan below and above 3.05 tonne unladen; (Buses, Coaches, Minibuses); Goods Vehicles <7.5 tonne LADEN (which would include I think the DVLA/VED categories of LGV, and SOME HGVs (as HGVs are >3.5t) etc. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that is that for HW code purposes, both a 3.9 tonne MGW MoHo and 3.5t MGW MoHo are the same thing: that is they are Motorhome/Caravan with an unladen weight no greater than 3.05 tonne [assuming that latter weight is true for the vehicle, which of course they will be designed to be (ours is)]. Notwithstanding that for VED revenue purposes, the 3.5 tonne is a Private/Light Goods Vehicle, and for 3.9 tonne is a Private/HGV. Now, I've just spent an hour 'investigating' all of that, even though I was happy about the speed limit/HW Code stuff before. But its a wet morning, and these things have an element of intellectual curiosity of their own i.e. how the different bits of the jigsaw fit together. Plus I am now triply confident, which is always good - until someone points me to something which fatally undermines that analysis.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 10, 2023 9:55:29 GMT
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that is that for HW code purposes, both a 3.9 tonne MGW MoHo and 3.5t MGW MoHo are the same thing Now renew your driving licence at 70... Do it the obvious online way, and you lose C1 entitlement (3500-7500kg), so are capped at 3500kg GVW on your normal B car licence. To keep C1, you have to do it by post AND pay for a D4 medical - every three years. Lose it once, it's gone. Because, obvs, 70 really isn't slap bang core motorhome driver territory...
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 10, 2023 12:04:52 GMT
Our 6m motorhome is limited to 3.5t MGW. We enjoy the same speed limits and lane usage as a car. One subtlety often overlooked by those keen to re-plate to a higher MGW is the reduced speed limits and (I believe) a restriction on using the third lane on the motorway (here and/or in Europe). Going above 3.5t means shaving 10mph off for certain roads. Plenty of unsuspecting van drivers have been pulled up by the law for this, so it's worth checking the rules that apply to your re-plated vehicle. I suspect you are restricted to 50/60 on single/dual carriageways, rather than the usual 60/70. You may also be barred from the motorway third lane, like an HGV, but don't quote me on that. Thanks, and it is always worth checking these things (though it is more difficult to do so than one might think....). I believe that in fact it is not impacted in terms of speed limits. For MoHo/Motor Caravans the speed limits are based on the max. unladen weight , not the MGW. So for Motorhomes and Motorcaravans the clip level is in fact 3.05 tonnes but that is max UNLADEN weight (source: current highway code). There is no link between max laden and speeds for MoHos. For goods vehicles, then it IS based on max laden weight. Of course the next question is whether it still counts as a MoHo/Motorcaravan. Online DVLA check doesn't in fact state anything about 'Private HGV', or Motorhome/MotorCaravan. It just states 'Revenue Weight' (which is the 3.9 tonne number). But the And this is where it gets "interesting" trying to tie the ends together. Speed limits are based on vehicle types such as Motorhome/Motorcaravan (up to 3.05 unladen, over 3.05 unladen), car/Motorcycles, Goods Vehicle (up to 7.5 tonnes Laden) etc. But DVLA tax classes do not have a 1 to 1 match. For example, there is no mention of 'Motorhome/Motorcaravan' in VED tax classes at all. There are however Private/Light Goods vehicle (up to 3.5 tonne MGW) and Private/Heavy Goods Vehicle (>3.5t MGW). So a 'standard' MoHo built on e.g. Renault Master <3.5t vehicle base is a Private Light Goods Vehicle for VED purposes, and one which is rated to 3.9t is a Private/Heavy Goods vehicle. So far so good. But because they are 'Private', they must also only ever be driven 'unladen' (by definition). If you were to strip the coachwork away and put a goods body back on it, then it would have to be reclassified as a Light or Heavy Goods vehicle as appropriate (without the 'Private'). So now coming back to National Speed limits. As noted, they have categories of MoHo/MoCaravan below and above 3.05 tonne unladen; (Buses, Coaches, Minibuses); Goods Vehicles <7.5 tonne LADEN (which would include I think the DVLA/VED categories of LGV, and SOME HGVs (as HGVs are >3.5t) etc. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that is that for HW code purposes, both a 3.9 tonne MGW MoHo and 3.5t MGW MoHo are the same thing: that is they are Motorhome/Caravan with an unladen weight no greater than 3.05 tonne [assuming that latter weight is true for the vehicle, which of course they will be designed to be (ours is)]. Notwithstanding that for VED revenue purposes, the 3.5 tonne is a Private/Light Goods Vehicle, and for 3.9 tonne is a Private/HGV. Now, I've just spent an hour 'investigating' all of that, even though I was happy about the speed limit/HW Code stuff before. But its a wet morning, and these things have an element of intellectual curiosity of their own i.e. how the different bits of the jigsaw fit together. Plus I am now triply confident, which is always good - until someone points me to something which fatally undermines that analysis. Complicated, isn't it? Thanks, your analysis looks plausible, the UK cut off is now 3.05t unladen as you say, but (and I could be wrong) I believe the rules travelling in Europe are different. AFAIK they ignore the rather silly 3.05t unladen thing and their speeds are determined by your plated weight being above or below 3.5t. I'm sure I recollect that used to be the case here at one time, too, but having tested positive for Covid last week which has now turned into bronchitis, I haven't the will to research further right now. You will appreciate that CBA rules currently apply  .
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Post by bracknellboy on Apr 10, 2023 12:48:40 GMT
Thanks, and it is always worth checking these things (though it is more difficult to do so than one might think....). I believe that in fact it is not impacted in terms of speed limits. For MoHo/Motor Caravans the speed limits are based on the max. unladen weight , not the MGW. So for Motorhomes and Motorcaravans the clip level is in fact 3.05 tonnes but that is max UNLADEN weight (source: current highway code). There is no link between max laden and speeds for MoHos. For goods vehicles, then it IS based on max laden weight. Of course the next question is whether it still counts as a MoHo/Motorcaravan. Online DVLA check doesn't in fact state anything about 'Private HGV', or Motorhome/MotorCaravan. It just states 'Revenue Weight' (which is the 3.9 tonne number). But the And this is where it gets "interesting" trying to tie the ends together. Speed limits are based on vehicle types such as Motorhome/Motorcaravan (up to 3.05 unladen, over 3.05 unladen), car/Motorcycles, Goods Vehicle (up to 7.5 tonnes Laden) etc. But DVLA tax classes do not have a 1 to 1 match. For example, there is no mention of 'Motorhome/Motorcaravan' in VED tax classes at all. There are however Private/Light Goods vehicle (up to 3.5 tonne MGW) and Private/Heavy Goods Vehicle (>3.5t MGW). So a 'standard' MoHo built on e.g. Renault Master <3.5t vehicle base is a Private Light Goods Vehicle for VED purposes, and one which is rated to 3.9t is a Private/Heavy Goods vehicle. So far so good. But because they are 'Private', they must also only ever be driven 'unladen' (by definition). If you were to strip the coachwork away and put a goods body back on it, then it would have to be reclassified as a Light or Heavy Goods vehicle as appropriate (without the 'Private'). So now coming back to National Speed limits. As noted, they have categories of MoHo/MoCaravan below and above 3.05 tonne unladen; (Buses, Coaches, Minibuses); Goods Vehicles <7.5 tonne LADEN (which would include I think the DVLA/VED categories of LGV, and SOME HGVs (as HGVs are >3.5t) etc. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that is that for HW code purposes, both a 3.9 tonne MGW MoHo and 3.5t MGW MoHo are the same thing: that is they are Motorhome/Caravan with an unladen weight no greater than 3.05 tonne [assuming that latter weight is true for the vehicle, which of course they will be designed to be (ours is)]. Notwithstanding that for VED revenue purposes, the 3.5 tonne is a Private/Light Goods Vehicle, and for 3.9 tonne is a Private/HGV. Now, I've just spent an hour 'investigating' all of that, even though I was happy about the speed limit/HW Code stuff before. But its a wet morning, and these things have an element of intellectual curiosity of their own i.e. how the different bits of the jigsaw fit together. Plus I am now triply confident, which is always good - until someone points me to something which fatally undermines that analysis. Complicated, isn't it? Thanks, your analysis looks plausible, the UK cut off is now 3.05t unladen as you say, but (and I could be wrong) I believe the rules travelling in Europe are different. AFAIK they ignore the rather silly 3.05t unladen thing and their speeds are determined by your plated weight being above or below 3.5t. I'm sure I recollect that used to be the case here at one time, too, but having tested positive for Covid last week which has now turned into bronchitis, I haven't the will to research further right now. You will appreciate that CBA rules currently apply . I've found this in relation to France. It appears to be from a reputable source. It backs up what you say about variant speed limits based on 3.5 tonne (though annoyinly it deosn't specify what that weight/mass measurement actually is, but I think we can assumed MGW/VGW. 5. Speed limits Campervans and motorhomes lighter than 3500 kg In built-up areas, the speed limit is 50 km/h (30 mph). Outside built-up areas it is 80 km/h (50 mph), except on two-lane roads with no central lines. The speed limit on these roads is 90 km/h (55 mph). If you find yourself on a dual carriageway, the speed limit is 110 km/h (70 mph). The speed limit for campervans and motorhomes on French motorways is 130 km/h (80 mph). There are two situations in which the speed limit is reduced on these roads. Rain or other precipitation that affects your visibility or makes road use challenging You have held your driving licence for less than three years The speed limit is then 80 km/h (50 mph) on 90 km/h (55 mph) roads and 100 km/h (60 mph) on 110 km/h (70 mph) roads. And for 130 km/h (80 mph) roads, it is reduced to 110 km/h (70 mph). Campervans and motorhomes heavier than 3500 kg In built-up areas, the same 50 km/h (30 mph) limit applies. But outside built-up areas, the speed limit is always 80 km/h (50 mph). The speed limit on dual carriageways is 100 km/h (60 mph) and on motorways it is 110 km/h (70 mph). Stickers with 80 (50 mph), 100 (60 mph) and 110 (70 mph) are required on the rear of campervans and motorhomes heavier than 3500 kg. These can be bought from many petrol stations in France.
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 10, 2023 15:34:07 GMT
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Apr 10, 2023 16:06:54 GMT
That all got a bit technical. Would I be right to sum it up as somebody has taken the caravan thingy from in front of Ms Sturgeon's mother in laws house?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Apr 10, 2023 16:11:59 GMT
Blimey its getting windy around here. All the bags are flying everywhere.
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Post by martin44 on Apr 10, 2023 18:46:37 GMT
With visions of towing a car behind my motorhome, i bought a vw up and took them both to a company in leeds to be paired up on an "A" frame basis... i was assured this was legal in both france and spain, and even given a sheet of paper in spanish and french, explaining why i could tow a car legally in france and spain.... turns out its illegal. did i do my usual due dilligence? NO.  |
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 10, 2023 22:45:14 GMT
That all got a bit technical. Would I be right to sum it up as somebody has taken the caravan thingy from in front of Ms Sturgeon's mother in laws house? 'Caravan thingy'... now, now  . This is a stonkingly top notch piece of kit, well beyond the means of almost everyone we see anywhere on UK campsites. But essentially yes, your summary sounds about right. Meanwhile, what I thought might be bronchitis has been diagnosed via a very good 111 and an excellent late night GP service as pneumonia this evening. Apparently it latched on to my lungs after covid had already tried destroying them last week... he called it a secondary infection and it's supposedly not that unusual. The only crumb of comfort is that Peter Murrell is probably in a worse place than the shipwreck that masquerades as my body right now. 
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Apr 11, 2023 6:32:39 GMT
Even better news, that horrible little man ian bkackford admits SNP have a bit work to do.no kidding ian!.
Seems he k ew things weren't going to well a few months back when he scurried back to Skye.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Apr 11, 2023 7:23:06 GMT
Meanwhile, what I thought might be bronchitis has been diagnosed via a very good 111 and an excellent late night GP service as pneumonia this evening. Apparently it latched on to my lungs after covid had already tried destroying them last week... he called it a secondary infection and it's supposedly not that unusual. The only crumb of comfort is that Peter Murrell is probably in a worse place than the shipwreck that masquerades as my body right now. ...
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Apr 11, 2023 10:12:29 GMT
Meanwhile, what I thought might be bronchitis has been diagnosed via a very good 111 and an excellent late night GP service as pneumonia this evening. Apparently it latched on to my lungs after covid had already tried destroying them last week... he called it a secondary infection and it's supposedly not that unusual. I hope you recover quickly and completely
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jonno
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Post by jonno on Apr 11, 2023 10:52:42 GMT
Meanwhile, what I thought might be bronchitis has been diagnosed via a very good 111 and an excellent late night GP service as pneumonia this evening. Apparently it latched on to my lungs after covid had already tried destroying them last week... he called it a secondary infection and it's supposedly not that unusual. I hope you recover quickly and completely Indeed. Sorry to hear you're not too good; here's hoping for a full recovery.
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Post by bernythedolt on Apr 11, 2023 14:37:51 GMT
Meanwhile, what I thought might be bronchitis has been diagnosed via a very good 111 and an excellent late night GP service as pneumonia this evening. Apparently it latched on to my lungs after covid had already tried destroying them last week... he called it a secondary infection and it's supposedly not that unusual. The only crumb of comfort is that Peter Murrell is probably in a worse place than the shipwreck that masquerades as my body right now. ... Here's hoping we're not quite in that territory just yet (although the occasional reminder of one's mortality is fair - just not too often please ).
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.
. This is a stonkingly top notch piece of kit, well beyond the means of almost everyone we see anywhere on UK campsites. 