travolta
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Post by travolta on Oct 22, 2024 18:15:35 GMT
I expect they were hoping for a 'can't breathe' scenario.
My cousin (immigration officer) was machine gunned in Finsbury Park a few years a go .(Not the police ,but Kurdish gangbangers). Ruined his car.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 22, 2024 18:24:45 GMT
And if they hadn't? There'd have been perpetual conspiracies about how he was "murdered", how it's all a "cover-up", etc etc. Sometimes, the trial is needed just to put things to bed, even if it IS harsh on the accused. Not as harsh in the long term as the insinuations. you can't and shouldn't put every firearms officer on trial every time they are involved in a shooting, fatal or non-fatal, just because they are doing their job. That is, frankly, ridiculous. Extrapolate it: every time a suspect is injured during an arrest, should the arresting officers be put on trial for assault? Every time someone dies at work, should the company be put on trial for corporate manslaughter? Just because? You investigate. And then if there is sufficient evidence of a crime having been committed you charge and take to court. You don't take it to court regardless of the evidence. Just because. Which is in effect what you are advocating should be done. If the public don't have faith in the investigation process then that is what you need to tackle. Not put people in the dock purely to compensate for that. Much as it pains me to say, I find myself agreeing with that. I also wonder how many would volunteer to carry firearms if when used they are pretty much guaranteed to face years of hell in a murder trial. To Keith, does trying to escape give the police the right to shoot? Take an extreme example, a guy outside with his hands up walking then running away. Police officer pointing a gun at him yelling "stop or I'll shoot". Should the guy running away be shot? I think so is my answer but what if he can't understand the officer? He doesn't speak english for example....
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Post by Ace on Oct 22, 2024 19:02:01 GMT
The Cris Kaba related posts have been moved here from the "What annoyed you (in the news) today?" thread.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 22, 2024 20:15:07 GMT
you can't and shouldn't put every firearms officer on trial every time they are involved in a shooting, fatal or non-fatal, just because they are doing their job. That is, frankly, ridiculous. Extrapolate it: every time a suspect is injured during an arrest, should the arresting officers be put on trial for assault? Every time someone dies at work, should the company be put on trial for corporate manslaughter? Just because? You investigate. And then if there is sufficient evidence of a crime having been committed you charge and take to court. You don't take it to court regardless of the evidence. Just because. Which is in effect what you are advocating should be done. If the public don't have faith in the investigation process then that is what you need to tackle. Not put people in the dock purely to compensate for that. Much as it pains me to say, I find myself agreeing with that. I also wonder how many would volunteer to carry firearms if when used they are pretty much guaranteed to face years of hell in a murder trial. To Keith, does trying to escape give the police the right to shoot? Take an extreme example, a guy outside with his hands up walking then running away. Police officer pointing a gun at him yelling "stop or I'll shoot". Should the guy running away be shot? I think so is my answer but what if he can't understand the officer? He doesn't speak english for example.... And do you think that would stop the police anywhere shooting a running suspect ? Having watched the video I can see how the officer thought peoples lives were in danger. and the more that emerges about Chris Kaba's past the more the friends and families demands for justice come across as nonsense
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 22, 2024 20:19:44 GMT
Much as it pains me to say, I find myself agreeing with that. I also wonder how many would volunteer to carry firearms if when used they are pretty much guaranteed to face years of hell in a murder trial. To Keith, does trying to escape give the police the right to shoot? Take an extreme example, a guy outside with his hands up walking then running away. Police officer pointing a gun at him yelling "stop or I'll shoot". Should the guy running away be shot? I think so is my answer but what if he can't understand the officer? He doesn't speak english for example.... Having watched the video I can see how the officer thought peoples lives were in danger. and the more that emerges about Chris Kaba's past the more the friends and families demands for justice come across as nonsense Don't know Keith. Certainly in America, Russia and probably China he'd be a gonna. Not sure about Europe nor if its the right thing to do. e.g. If a bloke has just been smoking weed (nothing else). He's one metre away from the officer and is asked to wait but doesn't. Should he be shot dead? Don't think I could do it.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 22, 2024 21:17:07 GMT
you can't and shouldn't put every firearms officer on trial every time they are involved in a shooting, fatal or non-fatal, just because they are doing their job. That is, frankly, ridiculous. Extrapolate it: every time a suspect is injured during an arrest, should the arresting officers be put on trial for assault? Every time someone dies at work, should the company be put on trial for corporate manslaughter? Just because? You investigate. And then if there is sufficient evidence of a crime having been committed you charge and take to court. You don't take it to court regardless of the evidence. Just because. Which is in effect what you are advocating should be done. If the public don't have faith in the investigation process then that is what you need to tackle. Not put people in the dock purely to compensate for that. Much as it pains me to say, I find myself agreeing with that. I also wonder how many would volunteer to carry firearms if when used they are pretty much guaranteed to face years of hell in a murder trial. To Keith, does trying to escape give the police the right to shoot? Take an extreme example, a guy outside with his hands up walking then running away. Police officer pointing a gun at him yelling "stop or I'll shoot". Should the guy running away be shot? I think so is my answer but what if he can't understand the officer? He doesn't speak english for example.... If in the UK, and in the general situation you describe, the officer would definitely find themselves on a murder/attempted murder charge. In this country for an officer to lawfully shoot someone, they have to rely on the law of self defense. That is, they have to honestly believe that theirs or someone elses life is in danger e.g. a member of the public or a fellow officer's. So shooting them just because you told them to stop and they don't doesn't give due cause. The point in Kaba's case is not that he was "trying to escape", but that in trying to make his escape his car was itself considered to be a deadly weapon that was putting officers lives at risk.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 22, 2024 22:22:41 GMT
Much as it pains me to say, I find myself agreeing with that. I also wonder how many would volunteer to carry firearms if when used they are pretty much guaranteed to face years of hell in a murder trial. To Keith, does trying to escape give the police the right to shoot? Take an extreme example, a guy outside with his hands up walking then running away. Police officer pointing a gun at him yelling "stop or I'll shoot". Should the guy running away be shot? I think so is my answer but what if he can't understand the officer? He doesn't speak english for example.... If in the UK, and in the general situation you describe, the officer would definitely find themselves on a murder/attempted murder charge. In this country for an officer to lawfully shoot someone, they have to rely on the law of self defense. That is, they have to honestly believe that theirs or someone elses life is in danger e.g. a member of the public or a fellow officer's. So shooting them just because you told them to stop and they don't doesn't give due cause. The point in Kaba's case is not that he was "trying to escape", but that in trying to make his escape his car was itself considered to be a deadly weapon that was putting officers lives at risk. To add to this, armed police used to be prevented from shooting at moving vehicles due to danger of ricochet ... this changed after vehicle attacks in Nice & London made the vehicles into terrorist weapons, and more powerful firearms which allowed probability of penetration of windscreens etc higher.
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observer
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Post by observer on Oct 23, 2024 15:54:25 GMT
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 23, 2024 16:06:31 GMT
especially given the "bounty" being put on NV121's head by associate of Kaba and the BBC even now running a story on how traumatised the friends and associates of Kaba, and those that live in the area where of Kaba lived are by the not guilty verdict. They (BBC) obviously don't think NX121 or his colleagues were traumatised by the event and still seem to be pushing the "innocent Black Man" story Obviously his family and associates think it was ok for him to shoot someone twice, be driving a car that was used as a get away vehicle, and had residues from a gun being fired on his clothes.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 23, 2024 16:41:12 GMT
Why should armed police get anonymity except the non-armed police? Then every single one of them wants to get armed to get “special” immunity for bad policing, that’s what I would fear
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observer
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Post by observer on Oct 23, 2024 17:39:08 GMT
Why should armed police get anonymity except the non-armed police? Then every single one of them wants to get armed to get “special” immunity for bad policing, that’s what I would fear Were they found guilty of an offence, they would - rightly - be identified. Here is a current case of an officer facing a charge of causing death by dangerous driving. An application to keep the officer anonymous at this stage is pending www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/avon-and-somerset-police-officer-charged-causing-death-dangerous-driving
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 23, 2024 18:03:46 GMT
This is the tricky part, founding “guilty”. We have so many investigations leading nowhere. Can we still trust the system?
Let’s imagine a bad cop did hurt someone intentionally and perhaps illegally but yet not found guilty.
Or in another scenario, an unlucky cop was bullied to admit a crime he didn’t commit but named and sentenced, years later, he was found innocent, at the end, the guilty one was never arrested nor be named.
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daveb
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Post by daveb on Oct 23, 2024 21:24:34 GMT
I had a look at some statistics. In the UK police shoot dead 2-3 people a year. In the Chris Kaba year, the other 2 were both using knives, one holding it to the throat of a child and one running towards a police officer with a knife held above his head, they'd tried a taser and it didn't stop him. 20-30 people are killed during police car pursuits, mostly in the car being chased, some passers by killed mainly by the suspects but occasionally the police.
I think this was on the IOPC site.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 24, 2024 4:33:23 GMT
I am not the expert of the law, what they are proposing to reform for the police have huge implications how bad police can act to cover themselves.
This is what the beeb found regarding bad police behaviour towards women.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Oct 24, 2024 6:10:20 GMT
This is the tricky part, founding “guilty”. We have so many investigations leading nowhere. Can we still trust the system? Let’s imagine a bad cop did hurt someone intentionally and perhaps illegally but yet not found guilty. Or in another scenario, an unlucky cop was bullied to admit a crime he didn’t commit but named and sentenced, years later, he was found innocent, at the end, the guilty one was never arrested nor be named. The public knowing the name of the policeman being prosecuted doesn't change much about the case. The details of the incident would still be public and covered in the press just officer X instead of his name, a policeman shooting someone is still a huge story, the trial would be the same. The problem with the name being public is the policeman (and his family) potentially suffering years of abuse on social media (or worse) to then be found not guilty. And not guilty will not satisfy some people who will carry on the harassment.
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