benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 24, 2024 6:27:33 GMT
This is the tricky part, founding “guilty”. We have so many investigations leading nowhere. Can we still trust the system? Let’s imagine a bad cop did hurt someone intentionally and perhaps illegally but yet not found guilty. Or in another scenario, an unlucky cop was bullied to admit a crime he didn’t commit but named and sentenced, years later, he was found innocent, at the end, the guilty one was never arrested nor be named. The public knowing the name of the policeman being prosecuted doesn't change much about the case. The details of the incident would still be public and covered in the press just officer X instead of his name, a policeman shooting someone is still a huge story, the trial would be the same. The problem with the name being public is the policeman (and his family) potentially suffering years of abuse on social media (or worse) to then be found not guilty. And not guilty will not satisfy some people who will carry on the harassment. I am not saying exposing the full identity of "anyone" before conviction is the right thing to do. This could go down with the same route for doctors and nurse who involves "strange" deaths. There should be laws and system in place to protect the innocent and their families. At the moment, I can't fully understand what kind of "immunity" are being proposed and bad actors might abusing the new "immunity", making independent investigation outside the official channels more difficult if there is a systematic corruption.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 24, 2024 7:24:56 GMT
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 24, 2024 9:50:00 GMT
Having watched the video I would say it is probably not the worse case of police using lethal force - although it is obviously unfortunate this young man was killed. There are dozens of cases where people have been killed/murdered by the police which are far worse - but less high profile. For example the case where the young man with mental problems was obviously intentionally run over by the police after doing a runner because he did not have car insurance was pretty appalling. The people who think the police should give carte blanche to do whatever they want to "protect society" fail to recognise there is a very definite need to protect the general public from some of the people in the police itself. As recent high profile events have shown, some of the most dangerous members of society are actually serving police officers.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 24, 2024 11:03:40 GMT
For sure, but I would posit that it is a very limited number of people who would actually think that, especially in this country. For those like me that were scratching their heads a bit on this one, presumably you are referring to a case in Australia from 2020. 'Cos for a moment there, given the context of the thread, I assumed you were referring both generally and specifically to the UK.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Oct 24, 2024 11:23:38 GMT
The Casey Review section on (both) Met firearms departments wrt racism and much more was utterly damning. Including the internal investigation process. Carrick, Couzens, Tyrell cases recent/ongoing. Summer rioting and cries of 2-tier policing reminiscent of 2011 riots after the Mark Duggan police shooting.
So I would absolutely say Yes to anonymity for all firearms officers until proven guilty, but recent history and impact on public trust pushes the argument for complete transparency and independent investigation/evaluation when anyone loses a life at the hands of the Met.
I also suspect the CPS knew full well the officer would be found not guilty.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 24, 2024 11:36:02 GMT
The Casey Review section on (both) Met firearms departments wrt racism and much more was utterly damning. Including the internal investigation process. Carrick, Couzens, Tyrell cases recent/ongoing. Summer rioting and cries of 2-tier policing reminiscent of 2011 riots after the Mark Duggan police shooting. So I would absolutely say Yes to anonymity for all firearms officers until proven guilty, but recent history and impact on public trust pushes the argument for complete transparency and independent investigation/evaluation when anyone loses a life at the hands of the Met. I also suspect the CPS knew full well the officer would be found not guilty.I also suspect that's the case: rather obviously they had the access to exactly the same video and the likely testimony of the other officers. And if so, as I started this discussion with, there are significant questions to be asked of the process involved in coming to a charging decision. However, we shouldn't overlook the fact that it was the IOPC who investigated, and handed that over to the CPS. And the IOPC had also recommended Gross Misconduct hearing (put on hold for the trial). The CPS might have felt that put them under undue pressure, even if they concluded that there was no reasonable chance of a conviction. Most likely though, they felt it was politically the right thing to do.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 24, 2024 12:39:34 GMT
For sure, but I would posit that it is a very limited number of people who would actually think that, especially in this country. For those like me that were scratching their heads a bit on this one, presumably you are referring to a case in Australia from 2020. 'Cos for a moment there, given the context of the thread, I assumed you were referring both generally and specifically to the UK. This is the case of Mr Holscher-Ermert who was killed after being mowed down by a police car while running away after being stopped for driving without insurance in his dads car. I initially saw the video of the incident on Social Media a while ago (which I will not post here since it involves a young man getting killed). The police handcuffing the young man as he lay on the road dying was especially disturbing to me. Having seen the video, I was very surprised the verdict was "misguided and dangerous attempt to stop him running away" but not guilty. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5dde5x8exo
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 24, 2024 15:08:20 GMT
I know someone who was in that position, IT was only after he was found not guilty that the police started to investigate the victim, she'd accused 10-12 different men of sexual assault 4 had been taken to court and every one was a quick not guilty ( one in under 20 minutes of deliberations ) The guy I knew was put through months of hell and lost his job, he even had witnesses that put him in a different town that night. It seems to me the CPS have an almost random factor in deciding which cases to prosecute
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Post by Ace on Oct 24, 2024 16:18:09 GMT
For sure, but I would posit that it is a very limited number of people who would actually think that, especially in this country. For those like me that were scratching their heads a bit on this one, presumably you are referring to a case in Australia from 2020. 'Cos for a moment there, given the context of the thread, I assumed you were referring both generally and specifically to the UK. This is the case of Mr Holscher-Ermert who was killed after being mowed down by a police car while running away after being stopped for driving without insurance in his dads car. I initially saw the video of the incident on Social Media a while ago (which I will not post here since it involves a young man getting killed). The police handcuffing the young man as he lay on the road dying was especially disturbing to me. Having seen the video, I was very surprised the verdict was "misguided and dangerous attempt to stop him running away" but not guilty. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5dde5x8exoSo, your statement that he "was obviously intentionally run over by the police after doing a runner" appears to be a gross misrepresentation of the actual event. The article you linked to states that there was no chance of a conviction since "the court was told of agreement between experts that the defendant’s actions in steering on to the wrong side of the road would have avoided a collision had the deceased not changed direction". Presumably, yet another conspiracy by the MSM to mislead us...
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 24, 2024 16:34:42 GMT
For sure, but I would posit that it is a very limited number of people who would actually think that, especially in this country. For those like me that were scratching their heads a bit on this one, presumably you are referring to a case in Australia from 2020. 'Cos for a moment there, given the context of the thread, I assumed you were referring both generally and specifically to the UK. This is the case of Mr Holscher-Ermert who was killed after being mowed down by a police car while running away after being stopped for driving without insurance in his dads car. I initially saw the video of the incident on Social Media a while ago (which I will not post here since it involves a young man getting killed). The police handcuffing the young man as he lay on the road dying was especially disturbing to me. Having seen the video, I was very surprised the verdict was "misguided and dangerous attempt to stop him running away" but not guilty.www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5dde5x8exoOK, thanks for the link. But reading the article that wasn't actually the conclusion. Firstly, it didn't end up going to trial: or rather it went to trial but the CPS offered no evidence and so there was no trial hearing. So the "verdict" bit is limited purely to the last part "Not Guilty". The first part comes in relation to the basis on which the CPS initially pressed charges: " It had been alleged that PC Corker deliberately steered on to the wrong side of the road towards the pedestrian in a "misguided and dangerous attempt to stop him running away". Note "alleged" at this point. So why did the CPS withdraw the case by not offering any evidence to court? Because: "However, the court was told of agreement between experts that the defendant’s actions in steering on to the wrong side of the road would have avoided a collision had the deceased not changed direction".So the conclusion of the experts was that the defendant's action in steering to the other side of the road was entirely compatible with, and indeed evidence of, the driver (PC Coker) taking deliberate steps to avoid collision with the victim. And not as originally alleged a "misguided and dangerous attempt to stop him running away." Unfortunately and very sadly the victim changed direction and hence they were both back on a collision course. And thus the CPS realised they had no case. That would appear to be somewhat in contradiction to this: It would appear it was so obvious that the experts concluded the complete opposite. Of course other elements of the incident may still lead to some form of misconduct finding, but that is a rather different issue.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 24, 2024 17:18:18 GMT
I would watch the video if you do not find the content disturbing and make up your own mind about it. That is what I did.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 24, 2024 17:36:39 GMT
I would watch the video if you do not find the content disturbing and make up your own mind about it. That is what I did. I'm sure it is disturbing - and actually yes now I have just watched it (at least one lot of video). But there are reasons why you and I or indeed any other randoms on the internet are not called as "expert witnesses". Thank god. Even if Michael Gove believes that "People have had enough of experts", thankfully the court system thinks differently. And they will have done forensic analysis of the video, including no doubt full analysis of the movements and speeds of all the involved parties. Expert agreement will I'm sure have meant agreement between the experts employed by both sides: the prosecution and the defence. I think I'd rather trust their judgement.
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rocky1
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Post by rocky1 on Oct 24, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
back to the opening discussion.not exactly the church going family man his family are trying to portray.long history of criminality from an early age.knives,guns,drugs,he was a major player with a big reputation.a wolf in sheeps clothing. he knew he was in the sh*t when police stopped his car.why not get out and put your hands up if you are innocent.no ram cars and try to escape instead.every time this bloody racist card comes out.what are the police supposed to do?wait until he shoots 1 of them and then ask is it ok if they can fire back.it is getting more like america every day with the knife and gun violence the only difference is the police over there dont f*ck about and the gangs know this and soon drop to the floor when instructed.i think a few/lots of american cops should be brought over here and let loose on the streets.let the gangs see that their playing with the big boys.it will never stop. so another young misguided life is lost leaving loads of misery/heartache for some and for others not so much.even so i hope he rests in peace and if even 1 of these gang members realise that if you live by the sword sh*t happens and changes their ways it would be a start.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 24, 2024 19:11:13 GMT
I would watch the video if you do not find the content disturbing and make up your own mind about it. That is what I did. I'm sure it is disturbing - and actually yes now I have just watched it (at least one lot of video). But there are reasons why you and I or indeed any other randoms on the internet are not called as "expert witnesses". Thank god. Even if Michael Gove believes that "People have had enough of experts", thankfully the court system thinks differently. And they will have done forensic analysis of the video, including no doubt full analysis of the movements and speeds of all the involved parties. Expert agreement will I'm sure have meant agreement between the experts employed by both sides: the prosecution and the defence. I think I'd rather trust their judgement. This is an excellent demonstration of the very bind that the CPS and IOPC are in. We are looking at two cases involving people who were undoubtedly guilty of offences and were trying to escape the consequences, versus the police who were trying to close down the risk to the wider public and may or may not have overstepped the mark. Those who are of a conspiracy or "them vs us" mindset will always find the most negative spin to put on it. More disinterested observers will look at the evidence available - yes, perhaps with a more "establishment" mindset.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 25, 2024 7:07:03 GMT
Let’s hope the demonstration reflects the reality. Some of those who are failed by the authorities and don’t have the courage to come forward and make their voice heard.
I accept nothing is perfect, but how many times our system fail? Should we have a zero tolerance of failure to protect ordinary people?
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