adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 25, 2024 7:15:46 GMT
Should we have a zero tolerance of failure to protect ordinary people? Be nice, wouldn't it? Simply impossible, though.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 9:14:46 GMT
I'm sure it is disturbing - and actually yes now I have just watched it (at least one lot of video). But there are reasons why you and I or indeed any other randoms on the internet are not called as "expert witnesses". Thank god. Even if Michael Gove believes that "People have had enough of experts", thankfully the court system thinks differently. And they will have done forensic analysis of the video, including no doubt full analysis of the movements and speeds of all the involved parties. Expert agreement will I'm sure have meant agreement between the experts employed by both sides: the prosecution and the defence. I think I'd rather trust their judgement. This is an excellent demonstration of the very bind that the CPS and IOPC are in. We are looking at two cases involving people who were undoubtedly guilty of offences and were trying to escape the consequences, versus the police who were trying to close down the risk to the wider public and may or may not have overstepped the mark. Those who are of a conspiracy or "them vs us" mindset will always find the most negative spin to put on it. More disinterested observers will look at the evidence available - yes, perhaps with a more "establishment" mindset. The other aspect of this was the probable contrast between what was publicly available for the online crowd to look at, and what was available to those involved in the case. The video I found online was the dashcam of the police car travelling in the opposite direction, not the car that hit the poor guy. I found it in a couple of places, one of which was a "Police Abusing Powers" YouTube channel. About 23s of dashcam video, in this case bookended by at least 7 minutes of commentary from the "Police Abusing Powers" guy. (Unlike other places (MSM....) where it was available as just the video without verbiage) It should be pointed out that it was at night, dark. And the video is from a car travelling from the opposite direction and not involved in the collision. And yes it's a little "disturbing", esp. if looked at through one set of optics. But critically you cannot get a decent view of the guy in the final few seconds. There is a rather obvious question that flows from that: what about the dashcam from the vehicle that actually collided with him? My guess would be that was not released to the public because it was considered a little bit too ghoulish. Maybe at the request/agreement of the family. I very much doubt that it didn't have dashcam. Needless to say, that video would have been considerably more illuminating - literally and figuratively. And it would have been available to the prosecution team, its expert witness(es) and those of the defence.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 25, 2024 9:21:13 GMT
The other aspect of this was the probable contrast between what was publicly available for the online crowd to look at, and what was available to those involved in the case. Perennial... Yes, I found that one, too. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9G4JQeudo&t=335s - straight to the dashcam without all the conspiracy waffle. For extra lack-of-quality points, it's a phone video of playback on a screen, not the actual footage. Was it a police car dashcam, or Joe Public? There's no clues in the video. I watched with audio off, but even if he stated, do we trust that statement? AIUI, all police cars have digital recording - video/audio and data - as well as bodycams on the officers. So, yes, that would have been available.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 25, 2024 9:25:45 GMT
Well, I am not here to defend bad police nor bad criminals. Pretty sure there are many good police out there doing their duties. Do good "criminals" exist? I believe so but I have never met anyone. They might have committed a crime for whatever the reasons they believe in.
I have heard many stories "authorities" using their "powers" to stop for a "chat" or even strip people unnecessarily. How many of those have reported back to the IOPC? Sarah Everard? Did she do anything wrong?
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 10:21:43 GMT
The other aspect of this was the probable contrast between what was publicly available for the online crowd to look at, and what was available to those involved in the case. Perennial... Yes, I found that one, too. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9G4JQeudo&t=335s - straight to the dashcam without all the conspiracy waffle. For extra lack-of-quality points, it's a phone video of playback on a screen, not the actual footage. Was it a police car dashcam, or Joe Public? There's no clues in the video. I watched with audio off, but even if he stated, do we trust that statement? AIUI, all police cars have digital recording - video/audio and data - as well as bodycams on the officers. So, yes, that would have been available. For some reason I assumed it was police vehicle. But perhaps not. I can't recall what was on the audio - except for one bit - and can't be ar***d to check it again. But recalling the picture I think you might be right that it was joe public phone. Bodycam availability is more dubious: as in it is often not provided to officers. That may have changed, but certainly only 4 years ago with TVP it was unusual to be able to get a bodycam to go on duty with. There simply weren't enough and rarely issued. Whereas of course every member of the public has a handheld video camera that they can choose to start and stop filming from at "convenient" times. A case of equipment cost trumping potential officer career, and police force reputational risk. The Met may have been better off.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 25, 2024 17:15:20 GMT
Well, I am not here to defend bad police nor bad criminals. Pretty sure there are many good police out there doing their duties. Do good "criminals" exist? I believe so but I have never met anyone. They might have committed a crime for whatever the reasons they believe in. I have heard many stories "authorities" using their "powers" to stop for a "chat" or even strip people unnecessarily. How many of those have reported back to the IOPC? Sarah Everard? Did she do anything wrong? Although there have never been an official study on the subject, it is pretty obvious to me there is much higher percentage of psychopaths in the police than in the general population.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 17:28:02 GMT
Well, I am not here to defend bad police nor bad criminals. Pretty sure there are many good police out there doing their duties. Do good "criminals" exist? I believe so but I have never met anyone. They might have committed a crime for whatever the reasons they believe in. I have heard many stories "authorities" using their "powers" to stop for a "chat" or even strip people unnecessarily. How many of those have reported back to the IOPC? Sarah Everard? Did she do anything wrong? there is much higher percentage of psychopaths in the police than in the general population. That's a real classic of its genre ! Expressing it a different way: although I have absolutely no data/subjective numbers of either my own or anyone else's for this hypothesis, its pretty obvious to me that.... I guess there is no point asking you what your evidence for this is as you've already stated up front that you don't have any. Classic.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 17:31:35 GMT
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 25, 2024 17:34:03 GMT
Well, I am not here to defend bad police nor bad criminals. Pretty sure there are many good police out there doing their duties. Do good "criminals" exist? I believe so but I have never met anyone. They might have committed a crime for whatever the reasons they believe in. I have heard many stories "authorities" using their "powers" to stop for a "chat" or even strip people unnecessarily. How many of those have reported back to the IOPC? Sarah Everard? Did she do anything wrong? Although there have never been an official study on the subject, it is pretty obvious to me there is much higher percentage of psychopaths in the police than in the general population. Quite a lot seems to be "pretty obvious to you". Meanwhile the Economist reports that "Cases of this sort are very rare in Britain. Armed police attend around 18,000 incidents each year; there have been only 65 in the past decade in which they have fired at people". I'm not an uncritical supporter of the police (I live in London and the Met's reputation is deservedly not what it should be), but I do recognise that they have a very, very difficult job to do. Sometimes an impossible one. I have a number of black friends, and whilst, candidly, they may recognise that Kaba was a wrong'un, they find it very, very difficult to get from there to "the police acted appropriately". The reason for this is simple - decades of systemic racism from the institutions of state, first and foremost the police. It's changing for the better, but not fast enough, and certainly not fast enough to materially affect their views of the police today.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 25, 2024 17:35:42 GMT
Although there have never been an official study on the subject, it is pretty obvious to me there is much higher percentage of psychopaths in the police than in the general population. That's a real classic of its genre ! Expressing it a different way: although I have absolutely no data/subjective numbers of either my own or anyone else's for this hypothesis, its pretty obvious to me that.... I guess there is no point asking you what your evidence for this is as you've already stated up front that you don't have any. Classic.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 25, 2024 17:52:12 GMT
That's a real classic of its genre ! Expressing it a different way: although I have absolutely no data/subjective numbers of either my own or anyone else's for this hypothesis, its pretty obvious to me that.... I guess there is no point asking you what your evidence for this is as you've already stated up front that you don't have any. Classic. Of those 43 names, how many are British? Two. Dennis Nilsen, arrested in 1983. He completed his police training, but resigned from the police eight months later, a decade before his arrest. John Christie, arrested in 1953. He served in the War Reserve Police (effectively Special Constables) during the war, despite the fact he should never have been accepted because of an earlier conviction.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Oct 25, 2024 19:25:11 GMT
Of those 43 names, how many are British? Two. Dennis Nilsen, arrested in 1983. He completed his police training, but resigned from the police eight months later, a decade before his arrest. John Christie, arrested in 1953. He served in the War Reserve Police (effectively Special Constables) during the war, despite the fact he should never have been accepted because of an earlier conviction. This is a list of Serial Killers which are extremely rare thankfully. It does not include serial rapists like PC David Carrick or people murder once like PC Wayne Couzens. I want to make it very clear I am not saying the majority police are psychopaths, I am just pointing out that I have often suspected psychopaths will be disproportionately attracted to The Force since they tend to like having power of other people*. * - this is probably also why they are disproportionately attracted to politics.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 19:54:12 GMT
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 25, 2024 20:17:02 GMT
Of those 43 names, how many are British? Two. Dennis Nilsen, arrested in 1983. He completed his police training, but resigned from the police eight months later, a decade before his arrest. John Christie, arrested in 1953. He served in the War Reserve Police (effectively Special Constables) during the war, despite the fact he should never have been accepted because of an earlier conviction. This is a list of Serial Killers which are extremely rare thankfully. It does not include serial rapists like PC David Carrick or people murder once like PC Wayne Couzens. I want to make it very clear I am not saying the majority police are psychopaths, I am just pointing out that I have often suspected psychopaths will be disproportionately attracted to The Force since they tend to like having power of other people*. * - this is probably also why they are disproportionately attracted to politics. Except of course that isn't even remotely what you actually said. Had you said that, a debate would might have ensured. What you actually said was: not ' suspected', but ' pretty obvious that...' and not ' attracted to' but actually 'in'. And not " disproportionally" but ' much higher'. FWIW I think it is correct to say that some of a criminal intent, and some power crazies, including perhaps psychopaths, are attracted to the Police for pretty obvious reasons. I think the 'psycopathic' and power crazy element is more likely to be an issue in countries where even Officer Dibble gets to carry a side arm, plus a pump action shotgun in the back of his patrol car, and the use of deadly force is far more common than in the UK. However, there is a thing called 'vetting' and psychometric testing. So 'being attracted to' and being 'in' are two very different things. I would add that the vast majority of police officers - no I don't have data for that other than the experience of the ones I've met, and relayed 1st hand to me - go in to policing driven by a sense of 'social caring' and being on the side of the weak and vulnerable. Edit: and consequently, those with sociopathic traits are more likely to struggle/be found out in the job. Also FWIW: I think it is very safe to say that the quality of sifting and vetting of recruits has deteriorated over the last 5-10 years. So more of the unwelcome may be getting through the filters.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 26, 2024 6:28:35 GMT
Of those 43 names, how many are British? Two. Dennis Nilsen, arrested in 1983. He completed his police training, but resigned from the police eight months later, a decade before his arrest. John Christie, arrested in 1953. He served in the War Reserve Police (effectively Special Constables) during the war, despite the fact he should never have been accepted because of an earlier conviction. This is a list of Serial Killers which are extremely rare thankfully. No, it's a list of serial killers that were law enforcement officers, which you produced to back your baseless assertion up that psychopaths were over represented in the UK police. What you actually said was... Although there have never been an official study on the subject, it is pretty obvious to me there is much higher percentage of psychopaths in the police than in the general population. And as for... Coming soon, a link to Hitler and Genghis Khan?
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