james
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Post by james on Jan 13, 2016 18:32:59 GMT
JamesSS would certainly not be so stupid to respond that way - were they to do so in this day and age, they'd be named and shamed on social media, and likely fall victim to some idiot hacker who wants to join Anonymous. Of course, you were only being sarcastic, but the law is real, companies simply cannot ignore it. There is nothing shameful in helping those who have restrictions based on mental capability, whether that's due to Down's Syndrome, football knocks on the head, accidents or whatever else. SavingStream have improved accessibility for those who can't write automated tools and that merits praise. It wasn't the purpose of their change but it has still improved the situation. For anyone else, if provided medical documentation, I do expect them to consider what steps can be taken to help.
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ablender
Member of DD Central
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Post by ablender on Jan 13, 2016 18:59:50 GMT
JamesSS would certainly not be so stupid to respond that way - were they to do so in this day and age, they'd be named and shamed on social media, and likely fall victim to some idiot hacker who wants to join Anonymous. Of course, you were only being sarcastic, but the law is real, companies simply cannot ignore it. There is nothing shameful in helping those who have restrictions based on mental capability, whether that's due to Down's Syndrome, football knocks on the head, accidents or whatever else. SavingStream have improved accessibility for those who can't write automated tools and that merits praise. It wasn't the purpose of their change but it has still improved the situation. For anyone else, if provided medical documentation, I do expect them to consider what steps can be taken to help. As long as it is proportionate and does not end up putting them at an advantage. For example if they end up with an interface without the reCaptcha, who can guarantee that they will not have a helper with them to buy for them? That will definitely end up with an advantage to them. There is more than one face to a coin not only the one that sunspot is pressing. One other thing that I noticed is that sunspot is very selective to which posts to reply to. By the way, sunspot, you quote the law, but may I ask you if you are a lawyer or a judge?
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Post by sunspot on Jan 13, 2016 19:01:39 GMT
SS have no legal right to ask for medical documentation. They are simply required to obey the law.
My opinion that the secondary market is relatively inaccessible to people with certain disabilities may not be shared by a court of law, but the cost of defending such an action would vast (over £500 an hour for certain legal professionals) while the likelihood of winning would be small.
Now contrast that with the cost of implementing a prefunding system - it's an absolute no-brainer.
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am
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Post by am on Jan 13, 2016 19:22:56 GMT
Nows your chance oldgrumpy , you can legitimately complain to SS that you are discriminated against by their system as they should be well aware by now that you are a gorilla who is only able to access sites using a banana  is at a disadvantage. Gorillas are colorblind . See www.10-facts-about.com/Gorillas/id/980 point number 5. That would appear to be incorrect. All species of apes and old world monkeys are trichromats.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Jan 13, 2016 19:23:04 GMT
Apparently there may be over half a million sites using reCAPTCHA, including Facebook, Dropbox, VirginMedia...
It will take a powerful BOT to list all of them.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 13, 2016 19:26:12 GMT
Apologies for straying out of my "box", but I am watching this with interest as whilst we don't have any issues with bots that may not always be the case so keeping an eye on the arms race is of interest. It's also an interesting UX case study. Captcha's work "mostly". They can be beaten using a mechanical turk solution of some description (paid for service, or some people run large sites that display a captcha that they want solved as part of their own anti-bot strategy), or simply creating a custom interface. So someone could create themselves a control panel that is blank until a loan part is available for sale that their bot wants to get. It then instantly displays the captcha for them to solve manually giving them a small advantage in reaction time and saving on latency for completing the rest of the transaction (such as entering amounts). They can also use things like audio cues to get attention rather than having to watch the screen like a hawk. Some simpler captchas can be solved with computer vision techniques but recaptcha tends to be ahead of those kinds of solutions. No apology required, all welcome (especially insider outsiders). I don't see much (any?!) benefit for bots on AC, since there is little FFF action, so you are probably safe for now. Yes, there are quite a few captcha work-arounds, but almost all of them are going to be so slow as to defeat the purpose of 'getting a bid in fastest'. It is, iirc, theoretically possible to pre-pass the captcha test and store the 'valid human' token, to spit out when needed, but how long before google's servers invalidate it I am not sure, and whether anyone CBA to go to the trouble for the minor benefit of getting some extra £ invested at 1%/month ... I doubt. There is, almost certainly, a 'get out of jail free' universally valid captcha token (aka back door), which might be available for a price. Let's not even go there. 8>.
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phd
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Post by phd on Jan 13, 2016 19:46:11 GMT
All joking aside, this is great news for me and other small time investors if SS have finally tried to tackle the bots. There has been a lot of discussion here and on the moneything forum regarding this and it can only mean that SS are prepared to listen to its investors. This is going to put us all on a level playing field and I applaud SS for tackling it. I really would like to invest much more on SS but the bots prevent me from doing so
BTW anyone know how the pre funding on SS works?
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on Jan 13, 2016 20:05:50 GMT
All joking aside, this is great news for me and other small time investors if SS have finally tried to tackle the bots. There has been a lot of discussion here and on the moneything forum regarding this and it can only mean that SS are prepared to listen to its investors. This is going to put us all on a level playing field and I applaud SS for tackling it. I really would like to invest much more on SS but the bots prevent me from doing so BTW anyone know how the pre funding on SS works? See the link below The article is 5 months old, so has had a couple of tweaks since, but should give you a good idea of how it works www.p2p-banking.com/countries/uk-the-new-saving-stream-pre-funding-model/
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jan 13, 2016 20:58:27 GMT
Am I the only person who hasn't seen a box to tick yet?
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 13, 2016 21:03:23 GMT
Well you won't see it unless you get to the loan page while there is still > £0.00 available (i.e. a chance to buy), at which point you'll need to tell it how much, and tick the box, both. If it thinks you are not human (or gorilloid) you get a chance to solve a nice easy puzzle .. something too hard for a computer. 8>.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 13, 2016 21:18:12 GMT
All joking aside, this is great news for me and other small time investors if SS have finally tried to tackle the bots. There has been a lot of discussion here and on the moneything forum regarding this and it can only mean that SS are prepared to listen to its investors. This is going to put us all on a level playing field and I applaud SS for tackling it. I really would like to invest much more on SS but the bots prevent me from doing so BTW anyone know how the pre funding on SS works? See the link below The article is 5 months old, so has had a couple of tweaks since, but should give you a good idea of how it works www.p2p-banking.com/countries/uk-the-new-saving-stream-pre-funding-model/Main tweak is that for loans <£1m everyone gets the same 'fair share' (unless they asked for less than the 'fair share', in which case the bit they didn't want is shared too). Any 'remainder' (which would be an unfair allocation) goes to the SM. So if you ask for £300 or less you are fairly sure to get it, even on the smaller loans (and asking for more than you want is now self defeating).
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Post by chris on Jan 13, 2016 21:29:12 GMT
No apology required, all welcome (especially insider outsiders). I don't see much (any?!) benefit for bots on AC, since there is little FFF action, so you are probably safe for now. Yes, there are quite a few captcha work-arounds, but almost all of them are going to be so slow as to defeat the purpose of 'getting a bid in fastest'. It is, iirc, theoretically possible to pre-pass the captcha test and store the 'valid human' token, to spit out when needed, but how long before google's servers invalidate it I am not sure, and whether anyone CBA to go to the trouble for the minor benefit of getting some extra £ invested at 1%/month ... I doubt. There is, almost certainly, a 'get out of jail free' universally valid captcha token (aka back door), which might be available for a price. Let's not even go there. 8>. No I don't see any real benefit for bots on AC at the moment, and that is by design, however there are some developments planned for later this year where that may change. Probably won't change but there's a possibility depending on how we implement the new features so it's prudent to be on top of one's game. Wasn't aware of / hadn't thought of the pre-pass attack vector, that one is interesting. You would hope the timeout is short but that would solve the time delay of needing to use a mechanical turk, even if you need to refresh every couple of minutes. If you have £1m to deploy then paying a few cents to get someone in the third world to solve a captcha for you every couple of minutes wouldn't be much of a burden. I'm also aware of a computerised solution based on attacking captchas with accessibility compatible solutions that provide audio readouts of the answer. I've also got another couple of tricks that may allow you to work around recaptcha but I'll keep those closer to my chest lest I give too much away to the bot writers.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 13, 2016 21:47:56 GMT
AIUI (although it may have changed) the token can be good for the session, for an IP address, or for just one transaction, depending on how the developer set it up. Not sure about 'for just 5 seconds' though.
Google are also, I believe, supposed to make you actually solve one after some number of free passes (free pass because you found and ticked the box in an appropriately human fashion). Just keep wiggling the mouse about guys ...
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mikes1531
Member of DD Central
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 13, 2016 23:58:47 GMT
Google are also, I believe, supposed to make you actually solve one after some number of free passes (free pass because you found and ticked the box in an appropriately human fashion). I don't believe I've had any free passes. And I think I've had just one successful purchase since the new procedure was adopted, and that was for an overdue part so there might not have been a lot of competition for it. I can't say I've seen many parts available to be sold, though someone was playing around a little while ago selling a series of 1p parts. Testing a new bot? I think I might have been fast enough to buy some of those, but I really don't want shrapnel cluttering up my account. If some others have been getting free passes, then they'll get any available parts before I've solved the captcha. As long as free passes are randomly distributed, then I can't complain about unfairness, but how am I to know that's how it works?
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Jan 14, 2016 0:13:59 GMT
SS have no legal right to ask for medical documentation. They are simply required to obey the law. My opinion that the secondary market is relatively inaccessible to people with certain disabilities may not be shared by a court of law, but the cost of defending such an action would vast (over £500 an hour for certain legal professionals) while the likelihood of winning would be small. Now contrast that with the cost of implementing a prefunding system - it's an absolute no-brainer. Thinking about this post together with your previous post where you mentioned hacking SS in an Anonymous style; Should we take your stance as a threat? Will you be the one bringing the lawsuit against any of the platforms? I think that your wording is verging on abusive. Moderators can you please look into this?
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