ablender
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Post by ablender on Feb 21, 2016 20:24:21 GMT
I am sure that this discussion has already been covered in other threads.
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ben
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Post by ben on Feb 21, 2016 20:26:41 GMT
At the moment it is not a great issue but if it carries on the problem will be with the new loans is that if the bigger investor can not get what they want as a lot of middle investors are gaming the system (ie putting on more then they normally would and hold onto it for a period before selling) eventually the bigger investors will go and the big loans will not fill and the secondary market will become a lot less fluid Ben, do you really think that it is the "middle investors" who are gaming the system most? I think there is much more effect from the bigger investors. I base my opinion on the fact that it was the big hitters who objected to the bottom-up allocation as first projected for the pipeline and for the bottom-up allocation system for loans up to £1m pounds currently in use. It is probably a bit of both at the moment
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 21, 2016 23:05:55 GMT
At the moment it is not a great issue but if it carries on the problem will be with the new loans is that if the bigger investor can not get what they want as a lot of middle investors are gaming the system (ie putting on more then they normally would and hold onto it for a period before selling) eventually the bigger investors will go and the big loans will not fill and the secondary market will become a lot less fluid Ben, do you really think that it is the "middle investors" who are gaming the system most? I think there is much more effect from the bigger investors. I base my opinion on the fact that it was the big hitters who objected to the bottom-up allocation as first projected for the pipeline and for the bottom-up allocation system for loans up to £1m pounds currently in use. I see no reason why larger investors wouldn't increase their pre-funding so that after allocation they get something near to what they want. In fact, it may be more likely, because they get very little -- relative to their desires -- of sub-£1M loans. Since everyone can pre-fund up to their account size, there's plenty of scope to overbid. If someone pre-funds their maximum, then if the allocation factor is 20% they'd get an amount equal to 20% of their account size. That's not much diversification, so I wouldn't expect anyone actually to pre-fund that much. (With a sub-£10k account, pre-funding the maximum would result in an even bigger diversification problem.) I suppose one reason BH's might not pre-fund excessively is that if they mis-guess the allocation factor they'd end up with a lot more of the loan than they really want. If someone wants £200 and gets £800, they probably can be confident of being able to sell the excess £600 before SS become too upset with their negative balance. Someone who wants £25k and gets £100k might find the SM doesn't absorb their excess so easily. And particularly so if the reason for the over-allocation was that investors didn't like the loan for some reason, or had their collective appetite for SS loans sated. Then again if the SM freezes up those with deep pockets might find it easier to come up with an extra £75k than a small lender could find an extra £600, so perhaps this 'logic' is flawed. The critical question is whether the SM is likely to swing from famine to feast gradually or quickly. I'd guess the latter, but that really is just a guess. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Maybe we'll get a clue shortly, if the Watford loans go live this week.
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cooling_dude
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Post by cooling_dude on Feb 21, 2016 23:24:25 GMT
Ben, do you really think that it is the "middle investors" who are gaming the system most? I think there is much more effect from the bigger investors. I base my opinion on the fact that it was the big hitters who objected to the bottom-up allocation as first projected for the pipeline and for the bottom-up allocation system for loans up to £1m pounds currently in use. I see no reason why larger investors wouldn't increase their pre-funding so that after allocation they get something near to what they want. In fact, it may be more likely, because they get very little -- relative to their desires -- of sub-£1M loans. Since everyone can pre-fund up to their account size, there's plenty of scope to overbid. If someone pre-funds their maximum, then if the allocation factor is 20% they'd get an amount equal to 20% of their account size. That's not much diversification, so I wouldn't expect anyone actually to pre-fund that much. (With a sub-£10k account, pre-funding the maximum would result in an even bigger diversification problem.) I suppose one reason BH's might not pre-fund excessively is that if they mis-guess the allocation factor they'd end up with a lot more of the loan than they really want. If someone wants £200 and gets £800, they probably can be confident of being able to sell the excess £600 before SS become too upset with their negative balance. Someone who wants £25k and gets £100k might find the SM doesn't absorb their excess so easily. And particularly so if the reason for the over-allocation was that investors didn't like the loan for some reason, or had their collective appetite for SS loans sated. Then again if the SM freezes up those with deep pockets might find it easier to come up with an extra £75k than a small lender could find an extra £600, so perhaps this 'logic' is flawed. The critical question is whether the SM is likely to swing from famine to feast gradually or quickly. I'd guess the latter, but that really is just a guess. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Maybe we'll get a clue shortly, if the Watford loans go live this week. The question I have; are SS happy for us to resolve negative balances simply by placing the amount onto the SM? After all, if a negative balance is not resolved, SS will automatically place those investments that gave you a negative balance onto the SM. So this would have me believe that there is no penalty at all for gaming the Prefunding; even if you massively oversubscribe in a situation where the SM is completely stagnant, you simply place the amount onto the SM; it makes no difference if it does or doesn't move. It makes little difference anyway. I can see a situation in the near future where the SM becomes far less liquid, but this will only affect the older loans; newer loans are always going to be the easiest to shift
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Feb 21, 2016 23:32:36 GMT
. . . . Since everyone can pre-fund up to their account size, there's plenty of scope to overbid. If someone pre-funds their maximum, then if the allocation factor is 20% they'd get an amount equal to 20% of their account size. That's not much diversification, so I wouldn't expect anyone actually to pre-fund that much. (With a sub-£10k account, pre-funding the maximum would result in an even bigger diversification problem.) . . . I think that in arriving at this conclusion you are making the assumption that the particular lender is not getting much new money into SS and that you are calculating the diversification based only on what one holds in SS rather than all the P2P platforms. Am I correct in thinking this?
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 22, 2016 2:51:55 GMT
. . . . Since everyone can pre-fund up to their account size, there's plenty of scope to overbid. If someone pre-funds their maximum, then if the allocation factor is 20% they'd get an amount equal to 20% of their account size. That's not much diversification, so I wouldn't expect anyone actually to pre-fund that much. (With a sub-£10k account, pre-funding the maximum would result in an even bigger diversification problem.) I think that in arriving at this conclusion you are making the assumption that the particular lender is not getting much new money into SS and that you are calculating the diversification based only on what one holds in SS rather than all the P2P platforms. Am I correct in thinking this? Yes, I am not considering an investor's holdings on other platforms. When I refer to diversification, I'm referring to the spread of investments within a single platform. I'm not sure it matters whether the investor is trying to maintain or increase their SS holdings. If the release of a new loan means an allocation of 20% of a lender's existing account, then there's not a lot of difference between whether that new holding is viewed as 20% of their total SS holding (if they sell an equivalent amount of other loans in order to keep their total investment unchanged from what it was before the new investment) or 17% of their total holding (if they don't sell anything). The only time such a large investment might be appropriate, diversification-wise, would be if the investor is trying to increase their total SS investment massively, such as by a factor of five. In that case, their prior investments would represent 20% of their target investment, and the new allocation would represent 4% of their target investment. If they can repeat that process another 19 times, they'll reach their total investment goal and have a portfolio of over 20 loans, which some might consider a reasonable level of diversification. If SS regularly release about four large loans a month then it would take five months to achieve that.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 22, 2016 3:21:14 GMT
The question I have; are SS happy for us to resolve negative balances simply by placing the amount onto the SM? After all, if a negative balance is not resolved, SS will automatically place those investments that gave you a negative balance onto the SM. So this would have me believe that there is no penalty at all for gaming the Prefunding; even if you massively oversubscribe in a situation where the SM is completely stagnant, you simply place the amount onto the SM; it makes no difference if it does or doesn't move. I wouldn't think SS would be happy with an investor just offering parts for sale. I expect that what they really want is for the parts to be sold and for the negative balance to be cleared. And where there might be no stated 'penalty' for excessive negative balances, I wouldn't recommend planning on that continuing. If SS feel that an individual is abusing their 'buy now, pay later' privilege, I expect SS could withdraw that facility very quickly and insist that investor has cash available in their account before any future purchases would be allowed. It makes little difference anyway. I can see a situation in the near future where the SM becomes far less liquid, but this will only affect the older loans; newer loans are always going to be the easiest to shift I accept the general principle, but if the SM became less liquid, it might well be because a large new loan has been released, and it could be that loan isn't fully snapped up upon release. At that point it might not be so easy to find buyers for the excess because if everyone received their full pre-funding request there should be very little unsatisfied demand. And possibly quite the opposite, as anyone who didn't foresee the 100% allocation and pre-funded more than they really wanted also will be trying to sell their excess. The only thing that might save the investors trying to sell is the priority the SS system gives to investors' parts over underwriters' parts -- presuming they still operate that policy..
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Feb 22, 2016 6:38:38 GMT
Following from mikes1531 's post. If I stick to my current strategy of only bidding what I want to hold (no overbidding) (and given that I have the money for it in other loans or new money), I will be helping to keep the SM liquid after a large loan release as that means that it is likely I will not reach my target on the PM. (Thinking in terms of loan fully funded and each receives a part of what they asked for.)
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 22, 2016 8:05:38 GMT
The question I have; are SS happy for us to resolve negative balances simply by placing the amount onto the SM? The "New Pre-fund Investment" emails send by SS include the request: "Please ensure either a) a bank transfer is made within the next 24 hours to resolve this negative balance, or b) equivalent loan parts are sold to resolve this negative balance." They must be sold in order to cover the pre-fund balance, not just listed for sale.
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