dawn
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Post by dawn on Mar 4, 2016 9:09:04 GMT
I am reading it as:
EVERYONE has a £10,000 INPL (we like that acronym) limit as per pre-fund loans including new investors.
... the post is clearly about SM purchases, the context must determine the meaning.
Adding the word "as" completely changes the meaning. As written the OP is clearly referring to pre-funding, ie the PM, and I am taking that on face value. It seems perverse to assume otherwise. Some people think they have omitted "at least" but I prefer to assume that they wrote what they meant. Exactly how the £10k cap on INPL will be applied is unclear but otherwise I have no problem with the OP. I agree with you Webwiz - I think they said exactly what they meant and to me it is not ambiguous. For each pre-fund loan (they said 'per pre-fund loan') we can go up to £10K overdrawn - that seems clear to me. Thank you to SavingStream for what seems to me to be a fair and relatively simple (for users) change to combat the problems that they have knowledge about and we keep guessing about. I am not sure how simple it will be for them to implement the solution but as a user it seems straight forward to me on both the PM and the SM.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Mar 4, 2016 9:13:28 GMT
Dear All, Everyone now has a default limit to what they can buy on the secondary market unless they specifically request a higher one. Namely, it is a combination of cash on account plus your existing holdings i.e : £200,000 cash, no loan parts yet, you can buy £200,000 worth of loan parts. £200,000 loan parts, no cash, you can buy £200,000 worth of loan parts. £200,000 cash, £200,000 loan parts, you can buy £400,000 worth of loan parts. EVERYONE has a £10,000 INPL (we like that acronym) limit per pre-fund loan including new investors. Misuse of our generous system will result in restrictions and limitations. The last 3 pages seem to suggest these rules need explaining further, was just blocked when I tried to buy more than £10k on the secondary market. (Loan parts held are > £10k). At what point were you blocked? I just tried and got to "Are you sure..." at which point I cancelled because I did not want such a large chunk.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 9:15:47 GMT
... the final part.
I thought the new rules, meant a limit of £10k INPL pre-fund and the secondary market will be limited to account balance and cash held, seems this is incorrect.
It appears that everyone is limited to a maximum of £10k deficit on the secondary market, if this is the case then anyone bidding over £10k will need to have cash on account.
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dawn
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Post by dawn on Mar 4, 2016 9:29:25 GMT
... the final part. I thought the new rules, meant a limit of £10k INPL pre-fund and the secondary market will be limited to account balance and cash held, seems this is incorrect. I believe the new rules mean that you can be up to £10k overdrawn per pre-fund loan. You can pre-fund as much as you like within your own limits (based on the overall size of your investment (loans plus cash)). I think the difference between the SM and the PM is the SM is very reactive - so SavingStream have allowed as much flexibility as possible to enable people to quickly and easily sell/diversify. However the PM is not reactive - we know what is in the pipeline and when it is going live (at least we get 24 hours notice) and so we have a little more time to get our funds ready for the launch. We may not know how much we are going to get exactly but the £10K overdrawn facility helps to cover that. As it is per loan they can have several loans launch on the same day without it being an issue - ie 3 loans would mean being able to go up to £30K overdrawn provided no one loan went over £10K.
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sam i am
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Post by sam i am on Mar 4, 2016 9:31:38 GMT
I agree with you Webwiz - I think they said exactly what they meant and to me it is not ambiguous. For each pre-fund loan (they said 'per pre-fund loan') we can go up to £10K overdrawn - that seems clear to me. , the reason I'm not sure about your interpretation above is that it can lead to some unintended consequences. Consider a loan of £1.1m. This will use a proportional allocation method. Recent history would suggest that a loan of this size would be significantly oversubscribed. Gaming the system was rife because many people (including myself to a certain extent) would over-bid in order to try to obtain the amount they really wanted. A small minority over-bid by a very long way and then just dumped large amounts on the SM later (or just didn't bother to pay). However the majority of over-bidders would have been reasonably sensible to try to avoid picking up too much of the loan. If the rule is now that the maximum loan I can be allocated is limited to being £10k overdrawn, this gives me a perverse safety-net. I could theoretically pre-fund a large six figure sum for every loan. This allows me to game the system as much as I want and get a high allocation due to my existing holding. But I'm protected because if this ends up being a number over £10k, then my exposure is capped. This will make gaming by the BHs more prevalent. That's why I think the interpretation must be something different. Either the limit is on the pre-funding (rather than the overdrawn amount) or the phrase 'at least' was omitted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 9:36:11 GMT
I'll wait for a further update, I think the BH'rs will be emailing in soon when they discover they are all restricted to a £10k deficit on the secondary market.
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Post by jackpease on Mar 4, 2016 9:45:49 GMT
I long for the day that savingstream can post an unambiguous update that doesn't result in 3 pages of debate trying to understand what they meant.. I suspect that whether SS posted an ambiguous or unambiguous comment it'd generate pages and pages of debate. Even if was initially unambiguous, it'd become ambiguous by the time we thrashed it around enough.... Jack P
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star dust
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Post by star dust on Mar 4, 2016 9:46:21 GMT
The last 3 pages seem to suggest these rules need explaining further, was just blocked when I tried to buy more than £10k on the secondary market. (Loan parts held are more than £10k). You're braver than me, assuming you didn't actually want to purchase more than 10k, I tried it yesterday but chickened out at the final 'are you sure' as I didn't fancy being stuck with a large chunk of a slow selling loan! This gets murkier by the minute. I was also wondering about comms. for people not on the forum, I haven't had an email about this, and have not noticed anything obvious on their site.
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dawn
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Post by dawn on Mar 4, 2016 9:47:40 GMT
I agree with you Webwiz - I think they said exactly what they meant and to me it is not ambiguous. For each pre-fund loan (they said 'per pre-fund loan') we can go up to £10K overdrawn - that seems clear to me. , the reason I'm not sure about your interpretation above is that it can lead to some unintended consequences. Consider a loan of £1.1m. This will use a proportional allocation method. Recent history would suggest that a loan of this size would be significantly oversubscribed. Gaming the system was rife because many people (including myself to a certain extent) would over-bid in order to try to obtain the amount I really wanted. A small minority over-bid by a very long way and then just dumped large amounts on the SM later (or just didn't bother to pay). However the majority of over-bidders would have been reasonably sensible to try to avoid picking up too much of the loan. If the rule is now that the maximum loan I can be allocated is limited to being £10k overdrawn, this gives me a perverse safety-net. I could theoretically pre-fund a large six figure sum for every loan. This allows me to game the system as much as I want and get a high allocation due to my existing holding. But I'm protected because if this ends up being a number over £10k, then my exposure is capped. This will make gaming by the BHs more prevalent. That's why I think the interpretation must be something different. Either the limit is on the pre-funding (rather than the overdrawn amount) or the phrase 'at least' was omitted. I agree there could be some unintended consequences. I wasn't saying I thought this was the perfect solution (although, in the main, I think it is a good one) but that what they said they were going to do was clear to me. I still think they are saying no-one will be able to go more than £10k overdrawn on any single pre-fund launch. There will be consequences and, hopefully SavingStream will have tested what happens in different scenarios. They know what problem they are trying to fix and hopefully this will do it. Over-bidding has been a issue, but at the end of the day it is over-allocating at the time of the launch (due to the over-bidding) that has been causing the problems. If we are limited to a max of £10K overdrawn then the allocations within the loan should be fairer - less to those that used to go massively overdrawn so more to the rest.
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alanp
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Post by alanp on Mar 4, 2016 9:49:28 GMT
Just read through this and am can see where people's interpretations are coming from so let's hope a further clarifying post (with more examples hopefully) sorts it out.
Nobody seems to have commented on the option to request a HIGHER limit that to OP refers to so some investors who have proved they have deep pockets and have not abused things to date may be able to buy whatever they want on the SM anyway (up to their agreed "overdraft" limit").
However it pans out it looks like a good attempt to restrict flagrant abuse which can only be good for us all in the long term so well done SS.
Should just add, that any limit that goes into 5 figures on either PM or SM is more than enough for me so I won't personally be affected however it is implemented.
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dp
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Post by dp on Mar 4, 2016 9:56:58 GMT
Carry on as you are, most wont be affected unless your a BH. I hold a large chunk in SS but don't PF or hold over 10k on any loan.
If you bend the rules you will get an email from SS.
Simple.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 10:06:04 GMT
The last 3 pages seem to suggest these rules need explaining further, was just blocked when I tried to buy more than £10k on the secondary market. (Loan parts held are more than £10k). You're braver than me, assuming you didn't actually want to purchase more than 10k, I tried it yesterday but chickened out at the final 'are you sure' as I didn't fancy being stuck with a large chunk of a slow selling loan! This gets murkier by the minute. I was also wondering about comms. for people not on the forum, I haven't had an email about this, and have not noticed anything obvious on their site. Star dust, try hitting any loan, even one for £5 with a £15k bid. Haven't seen any bids greater than £10k on the secondary market today.
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sam i am
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Post by sam i am on Mar 4, 2016 10:30:32 GMT
Carry on as you are, most wont be affected unless your a BH. I hold a large chunk in SS but don't PF or hold over 10k on any loan.
If you bend the rules you will get an email from SS.
Simple. You will be affected if my 'unintended consequence' (in my post above) applies because the BHs will push down your allocation percentage on new loans.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Mar 4, 2016 10:42:31 GMT
....was just blocked when I tried to buy more than £10k on the secondary market. (Loan parts held are more than £10k).What error message did you get? I assume you were not doing what you suggested above and bidding >£10K on a loan of <£10K.
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Post by savingstream on Mar 4, 2016 10:44:38 GMT
If SS have set the PF dropdowns to 10k then thats the max you can prefund, wont matter if you have cash on the platform if the system doesnt take it into account. Has anyone actually checked their prefunding drop downs to see whether they go higher than 10k and if so is it still based on portfolio + cash balance as before? Yes I can't go beyond 10K If your total holdings including cash on account are less than £10k, you will have a max £10k bid limit. If you want more than that, cash must be deposited or you build your portfolio.
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