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Post by captainconfident on Nov 26, 2023 22:15:33 GMT
The LD had held those seats over and over again since the Liberal Party's heyday. A new party has no particular base in any one constituency, and can come second in all of them and get no seats. Because the choice between Conservative and Reform is different flavours of the same platform, they split the vote in every constituency in which both stand. Based on this, Reform can easily take 25% in every constituency but fail to win any of them. Every party has strong areas and weak areas, regionally. To get to quarter of the national vote without a single win? Nah. Quarter of the seats from quarter of the vote? Not even close. 2010 - LD 23% of vote, 8.7% of seats. 2019 - LD 11.6% of votes, 1.8% of seats. But a lot more than zero. Rather obviously I am stating a hypothetical extreme in suggesting Reform gets 25% in all constituencies. The point I was making was the relative effectiveness of representation in PR and FPTP systems. You understand exactly the point I was making so let's end this sidetrack eh?
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Post by captainconfident on Nov 27, 2023 10:49:36 GMT
Looking for as thread to put this in, because yes, I've found something that is fodder for my hobbyhorse, underfunding of public services in the UK. The devil's bargain of lower tax, hollowed out public and public-private sector. www.theguardian.com/inequality/2023/nov/27/uk-spends-more-financing-inequality-in-favour-of-rich-than-rest-of-europe-report-finds?utm_term=65644c509e72d43d51eaef4b7ef78572&utm_campaign=BusinessToday&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=bustoday_emailTo attach this to the PR debate: A hang-up of people about FPTP is the 'constituency MP'. You lose this in PR. So where would I go, as a Belgian resident, if I had a problem with which I might have contacted my MP? I imagine that with the crappy public services of the UK, most visitors to the MP have a problem with the crumbling system, and the MP will be trying to shake local government into action. The contact for me as a Belgian citizen is the local government, which is adequately funded and not firefighting against collapse, and so has time to deal with the problem. Rare would be the case for which the British system is designed, that the MP takes my complaint to parliament. This is some c17th idea that predates the modern world, development of local government etc that the MP saddles his horse and rides to parliament, scroll in hand. Not that the modern MP has much that they can do beyond mention something in a speech listened to by practically nobody. In a modern society, there is an appropriate place to contact with a specific problem, and the MP is mainly a switchboard. Are there issues I have not thought of that only contact with your constituency MP could solve, enough to justify hanging on to this antiquated idea? |
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 27, 2023 12:14:13 GMT
Years ago I had massive problems with the CSA as did many other fathers. from my experience and that of others I know your MP asking them a direct question or asking them to reconsider was the only way to get any action, otherwise I would just get fobbed off.
Examples that happened to me
phone call at 7:30 am on a Sunday, because my payment for that month hadn't arrived, I was paid monthly and they had an attachment of earnings order and Friday was pay day
2 reviews of my ability to pay running at the same , the first one finished and increased my payments by £150 a month the second decreased my payments by £25 a month but the rules were any increase applies to the date of the application for review, decrease from 14 days after the review is completed so I ended up with over £3,000 of arrears.
Whilst paying the arrears off my daughter decided she wanted to live with me, so I put in an application for payments from mother, despite me sending copies of court orders showing I had custody the CSA believed my ex rather than me. eventually the did an assessment but said she didn't have to pay as she was on proscribed benefits.
My MP asked what proscribed benefits were as he'd been involved in making the law and as far as he was aware the were no benefits exempt from payment. the CSA responded and said it was a mistake and the case would be reviewed, I got an order for £5 a week which was never paid even when I suggested that it be deducted from my arrears payments.
Statements of account would regularly have payments missing, and even though I would send copies of payslips they insisted money had not been received.
One statement when I was paying the arrears showed a higher balance at year end than at the start of the year despite them showing over £1,000 paid,
one of my colleagues had an assessment so high that he had just over £10 a month to live on ( pay bills, food, everything ), another was sent a bill backdated 16 years for a child he knew nothing about ( DNA eventually proved it wasn't his ) they gave him 28 days to pay arrears of over £40,000. The CSA paid him no heed when he insisted he'd never been to the place where this child was from, it came very close to wrecking his marriage
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 27, 2023 12:35:14 GMT
Never been involved with CMS myself, but it’s never too late to learn..
It’s definitely not to surprise CMS doesn’t have enough money to reverse payment or even have the magic to reverse the “wrong” payment from the other half of “real” biological
parent.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 27, 2023 12:56:00 GMT
To attach this to the PR debate: A hang-up of people about FPTP is the 'constituency MP'. You lose this in PR. So where would I go, as a Belgian resident, if I had a problem with which I might have contacted my MP? I imagine that with the crappy public services of the UK, most visitors to the MP have a problem with the crumbling system, and the MP will be trying to shake local government into action. The contact for me as a Belgian citizen is the local government, which is adequately funded and not firefighting against collapse, and so has time to deal with the problem. Rare would be the case for which the British system is designed, that the MP takes my complaint to parliament. This is some c17th idea that predates the modern world, development of local government etc that the MP saddles his horse and rides to parliament, scroll in hand. Not that the modern MP has much that they can do beyond mention something in a speech listened to by practically nobody. In a modern society, there is an appropriate place to contact with a specific problem, and the MP is mainly a switchboard. Are there issues I have not thought of that only contact with your constituency MP could solve, enough to justify hanging on to this antiquated idea? I used to think the constituency MP was important. But the problem is that most people vote by the colour of the ribbon alone, and give zero regard to the (de)merits of the individual wearing it. How often do we hear people saying they are/n't voting for a particular party leader, despite not living in that individual's constituency? I've had a lot more involvement with trying to escalate things lately... Our village has had a LOT of phone line problems. We're on the third batch of ten-day-plus multi-property outages in three months - the current one's approaching three weeks with no signs of being resolved. The lines are FTTP, landlines have been moved to digital over fibre, and we have zero mobile signal - so when the fibre's out, people have no telecomms at all. Quite a few in the village are elderly and vulnerable. Openreach do no proactive tree management around the lines. The only route as an affected household is to go via your phone supplier. They simply say "Openreach have told us it's being done", if you can get any kind of response. The chair of the parish council has leaned on the county councillor and the MP. The MP is a seat-warming perpetual backbencher, with a reputation for utter uselessness even amongst his supporters - and a fresh knighthood to demonstrate his loyalty to the party line. The ward councillor is new to the job, and of the same party as the MP. A staffer to the MP has forwarded one email (of many) up the Openreach foodchain... which has precipitated the only real activity from the councillor - fawning about how great a constituency MP we have. Meanwhile, the only action has come from the parish council and the county's broadband team badgering Openreach directly... Oh, and the county broadband team are being disbanded in January...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 27, 2023 13:46:37 GMT
What about pure democracy? MPs debate as usual but they have no vote. The vote is online available to anyone old enough to participate.
If I hear technical or security reasons I'll assume thats a cop out. If we really wanted it, it could be done.
Seems more democratic to me. Open to ideas on how the government would be formed in a system like this.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 27, 2023 14:20:07 GMT
Switzerland seems to have a lot of referendums, however I think the Civil service in the UK would be anti giving the public choices.
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Post by mostlywrong on Nov 27, 2023 14:45:22 GMT
...snip/ It was a pleasure to live there for 10 years. I enjoyed my time there even if I struggled to understand Dutch. Luckily, most people spoke English or German.
A name popped into my head and I had to google him to confirm: Ferry Mingelen.
He presented the news on the most popular channel and even I could (usually) understand him!
MW
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 27, 2023 17:35:06 GMT
What about pure democracy? MPs debate as usual but they have no vote. The vote is online available to anyone old enough to participate. If I hear technical or security reasons I'll assume thats a cop out. If we really wanted it, it could be done. Seems more democratic to me. Open to ideas on how the government would be formed in a system like this. How about simple practicality? There have been 265 votes in the HoC in the last year. votes.parliament.uk/votes/commonsand 167 in the HoL. votes.parliament.uk/votes/lordsMany of them are fine-detail amendments, and quite a few are interdependent and/or cumulative. Some of the HoC ones are disagreeing with the HoL ones. You're really suggesting that every single one of those should be handed to Joe Public? How many of those voting will actually follow the nuance of the debates before deciding? How many will just follow the suggested vote of their preferred party? Switzerland seems to have a lot of referendums, however I think the Civil service in the UK would be anti giving the public choices. - 11 across three dates last year en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Swiss_referendums - 3 on one date so far this year
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Nov 27, 2023 17:43:22 GMT
What about pure democracy? MPs debate as usual but they have no vote. The vote is online available to anyone old enough to participate. If I hear technical or security reasons I'll assume thats a cop out. If we really wanted it, it could be done. Seems more democratic to me. Open to ideas on how the government would be formed in a system like this. How about simple practicality? There have been 265 votes in the HoC in the last year. votes.parliament.uk/votes/commonsand 167 in the HoL. votes.parliament.uk/votes/lordsMany of them are fine-detail amendments, and quite a few are interdependent and/or cumulative. Some of the HoC ones are disagreeing with the HoL ones. You're really suggesting that every single one of those should be handed to Joe Public? How many of those voting will actually follow the nuance of the debates before deciding? How many will just follow the suggested vote of their preferred party? Switzerland seems to have a lot of referendums, however I think the Civil service in the UK would be anti giving the public choices. - 11 across three dates last year en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Swiss_referendums - 3 on one date so far this year I think perhaps for big issues, for example Abolish the HoL Remove Bishops from the HoL Increase VAT by 1p or Tax by 1P to fund extra nurses Abolish TV licence But if you give the public control you end up with a popularity contest, look at TV programs that let the public vote it's not the best singer who often wins its the pretty boy band or the female band with long legs.
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Post by captainconfident on Nov 27, 2023 18:06:39 GMT
But if you give the public control you end up with a popularity contest, look at TV programs that let the public vote it's not the best singer who often wins its the pretty boy band or the female band with long legs. and Brexit
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jo
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Post by jo on Nov 27, 2023 18:33:31 GMT
...snip/ It was a pleasure to live there for 10 years. I enjoyed my time there even if I struggled to understand Dutch. Luckily, most people spoke English or German.
A name popped into my head and I had to google him to confirm: Ferry Mingelen.
He presented the news on the most popular channel and even I could (usually) understand him!
MW
Some bits aren't too bad.  Attachments:xxxxxxxx.webp (41.47 KB)
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 27, 2023 22:27:49 GMT
But if you give the public control you end up with a popularity contest, look at TV programs that let the public vote it's not the best singer who often wins its the pretty boy band or the female band with long legs. and Brexit So what are you all saying? Democracy is a bad thing? The reasons given seem just like those provided before women were given the vote. And indeed before then, those non-land-owning types were given the vote. Do we want democracy or not ?
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Post by captainconfident on Nov 27, 2023 22:48:05 GMT
So what are you all saying? Democracy is a bad thing? The reasons given seem just like those provided before women were given the vote. And indeed before then, those non-land-owning types were given the vote. Do we want democracy or not ? Pure democracy, in the form of live voting on each issue using the Internet, would be prone to misinformation and manipulation and the acceptance of fleeting majorities that are quickly regretted. Such as vote on hanging being swung by a particularly heinous murder. What has to be best is the considered opinion of representatives chosen by a majority of the population. PR in other words.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Nov 27, 2023 23:14:48 GMT
So what are you all saying? Democracy is a bad thing? The reasons given seem just like those provided before women were given the vote. And indeed before then, those non-land-owning types were given the vote. Do we want democracy or not ? Pure democracy, in the form of live voting on each issue using the Internet, would be prone to misinformation and manipulation and the acceptance of fleeting majorities that are quickly regretted. Such as vote on hanging being swung by a particularly heinous murder. What has to be best is the considered opinion of representatives chosen by a majority of the population. PR in other words. But that is an argument for a meritocracy. A country governed in a similar way to a successful company. Competent people are promoted, incompetent ones are fired. No votes. Like China - at least they make no pretence of democracy. If you don't trust your fellow idiots to make good choices then surely you are saying you don't want democracy at all ? Or you trust them to pick someone you might trust to make decisions but if they can't make decisions themselves how can they be trusted to pick someone who is ? Or is that where the Beeb comes in.....
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